TALONSKY 0 #1 December 4, 2003 I just wanted to say excellent feature article in the December’s issue of Parachutist, Manbird & Kevin922. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crawford 0 #2 December 4, 2003 I am going to second that motion!!! BRAVO!!! "Sure, those Golf Carts may look all warm and fuzzy, but they WILL take a chunk out of your ass!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kevin922 0 #3 December 4, 2003 thanks :) it was definatley time Parachutist had some wingsuit covg. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unutsch 0 #4 December 4, 2003 i bet no one has a scanner to put those articles on the net, right? or is it illegal? Check out the site of the Fallen Angels FreeflY Organisation: http://www.padliangeli.org Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #5 December 4, 2003 Check here on the 10th, although, I would image that Kevin and Steve retain the copyright so could reproduce it on their website?Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kevin922 0 #6 December 4, 2003 QuoteCheck here on the 10th, although, I would image that Kevin and Steve retain the copyright so could reproduce it on their website? I believe portions of it, if not the whole thing, will be on flybirdman.com still working out the issues with USPA on it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unutsch 0 #7 December 4, 2003 thanks a lot Check out the site of the Fallen Angels FreeflY Organisation: http://www.padliangeli.org Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #8 December 5, 2003 There was some good information in the article. Additionally there was information/suggestions that that I have difficulty with, and those of you who have BM-I ratings would agree with me as well. There are many dropzones across the country that have never had wingsuit flyers jumping from thier aircraft, let alone having a S&TA that could properly instruct a first flight. Taking a first flight course with a certified BirdMan instructor should always be encouraged and should be the norm for wingsuit flyers. It is and should be the standard. BB Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #9 December 5, 2003 If the S&TA is doing their job correctly then when presented with a situation like this where they have no answers they should be seeking out the answers. Reading the Birdman manual will answer a lot of common training questions and can assist the S&TA in decideing if its something that they think they can handle or if they are going to require official training. Skysurfing is a lot like Birdman instruction. Currently there are only a few specialized locations that have large clumps of extremely skilled teachers, but there are dozens and dozens of places around that have some one thats got a few jumps under their belt and can at least provide enough basic instruction to reduse a bit of the risk. Surflite used to have a video that after watching it, you were cleared to do your first skysurf on a baby board. If someone comes up to wanting to go flock... I'm not going to turn them down just since I'm not "certified". Sure I can't pass on all the tricks that a "certified" instructor can, but I can at least reduce someones risk by making sure they don't make stupid decisions or silly mistakes at first.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #10 December 5, 2003 In that instance, Eric, one would hope that you at leat enforce what BM (and now the new SIM) state as minimums. You have the qualifications to attend the BM-I course and I would recommend you attend the course. In the absence of available instruction, we "do the best we can" to help others along in whatever discipline. When there finally evolves a decent program of instruction, then we would all do well to adopt that POI, less we come up with a better, more all-encompassing program. The skysurfing analogy was pretty good, as I was one of the first people in the US doing it (1990, here at Raeford. I have plenty of photos and video). The few of us that were doing it had nothing to go by back then. Some people were piecing together boards from plywood, snowboards (too flexy) and trick skis (my choice). It was very balsy shit, but we all, with very few notable exceptions, got through it OK. Wingsuit jumping today is WAY past that halcyon stage. We have safe suits and a safe program of instruction. The experience requirements are not draconian by any means, so there is no reason that anyone needs to be rushing aimlessly into this discipline. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #11 December 5, 2003 >In that instance, Eric, one would hope that you at leat enforce what BM (and now the new SIM) state as minimums. No issues there. I've turned down a few people that go way beyond the mins since I don't think they would be well suited for flying a suit. I've held back on teaching a few people till they reach the mins, WrongWay on here is one of those that I think would do ok... but I have'nt suited him up since he's under the mins. I fully plan on attending a course but since I am not going to be at Eloy, I'm looking at the one in Alabama as my next option. Or if anyone at the Birdhouse would run me through the course I'm planning on being in Deland for a few days in Jan. The teaching methods have came a long ways in both Skysurf and Wingsuit flying recently. It was only in '99 that Wingsuits were shown to the masses in the midwest and the teaching format has changed a lost since then even. I took a skysurf board out after listening to someone that had 10-15 skysurf jumps. Talk about blind leading the blind... I learned from that one just since some one survived it once does'nt make them a great example to learn from Parachutist did a few articles a while ago on Skysurfing and how to go about doing the basics and that article covered a lot of the same things that this wingsuit article did. Basically both tried to teach and show you the best way to do it in the absence of true professional instruction.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #12 December 5, 2003 I personally did just that when I wanted to get into wingsuit flying, I talked to the S&TA. He had done a few jumps and gave me input on my abilities (at the time I had 400 jumps). I did end up talking to the late great Dwaine Weston about it when he would come around my DZ prior to getting a suit. Then I did my first 5 jumps using the collage of information from the manual, the S&TA and Dwaine. I really think that the birdman suit manual has a good explanation of how to start flying the suits, although with out instruction getting proficient at flying the suit would be hard. After my first five jumps I was able to hook up with Dwaine and get some very helpful info on my flying. So in the end I think that is a great idea to talk to the S&TA about it if there are no birdmen around the DZ.In the end the S&TA had alot of helpful information and sugestions, which I benifitted alot from. Kirk PS: I was wondering if you use to jump out here at Skydive Oregon? In the end the S&TA had alot of helpful information and sugestions, which I benifitted alot from. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #13 December 5, 2003 To caveat what Chuck and Betsy have already said, there is a structured instruction program in place. However, being that interest in Wingsuits is growing at a phenomenal rate, the last BMI course was proof of that, some things need to be kept in mind. The enthusiasm for the discipline is welcome and encouraged but we must be careful that mis information isn't spread as gospel or encourage practices that could be detrimental to the discipline in the long run. There was a time not long ago when wing suits were prohibited because they were thought to be dangerous. The last thing this discipline needs is for there to be Birdman related incidents due to the general skydiving community thinking that they don't need proper instruction. At this juncture the discipline is self policing and we hope to have it remain that way. To ensure this Birdman Inc has formalized the methods of instruction to ensure that the proper information is disseminated by qualified BMIs no matter what continent you are on. Lets keep it safe and fun for everyone for years to come."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #14 December 5, 2003 I don't think I need to restate my position. Chuck and Lou were both more eloquent than I, but our views are the same. Cheers! BB Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kevin922 0 #15 December 5, 2003 Quotewe must be careful that mis information isn't spread as gospel or encourage practices that could be detrimental to the discipline in the long run. I definately agree with some of the comments here, with the exception of the "year of production" error which will be fixed in January's parachutist, the article is accurate. Currently there isn't a REQUIREMENT for training by a BMI or anyone else to fly wingsuits. The article clearly states the preferred method to learn how to fly wingsuits is through a BMI. I think BASE jumping is similar in the training -- you can go take a course by basic research or some of the other big base companies to learn how to base jump, or you can hook up with your local base jumper and mentor, or if you're really ballsy you can read up a bunch watch some videos and go do it yourself. The same is true in wingsuit flight, I believe the chain of "best way to worst way" is obvious. The article was intended to give someone all the options they have available, I don't believe it recommends "just going and taking a suit out with no training" as the best option. I personally do not go out "renegade" training people to fly a wingsuit. I will, like phree, give advice to people about them evaluate if they should even be thinking about flying a wingsuit and recommend the BEST way to learn how to fly one. Again the article's purpose was to give information about wingsuit flight, promote the discipline, and 'spread the love' sorry if anyone took offense to how it was written. Kevin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #16 December 5, 2003 I just reread the article last night and I think it is great to see an intelligent well written article on wingsuit flying. I think the ones who critique it for minor content may have not read the article thorougly and should try and write a better one. DAMN GOOD JOB, Kevin and Steve Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #17 December 6, 2003 QuoteI think the ones who critique it for minor content may have not read the article thorougly and should try and write a better one. There are several well wthought out, well written articles on the subject at www.bird-man.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #18 December 6, 2003 Ah yes, your right. However, not very many have been published in a format that will get across to a large group on nonbirdman as this one. My opinion may be bias(being friends with Steve) but I think this article explains wingsuit flying in a manor that the rest of the skydiving community (at least the one's vaguely interested in it) may be able to relate to(it lets them know how to get started and where to get start, plus what the benifits of wingsuit flying are). Most of the nonbirdman(that come up and talk to me about wing suits) find wing suit flight intriguing and I think that just may be we will add a few more members to the flock over this article. I am not saying this is the greatest thing ever all I am saying is Steve and Kevin put alot of time and energy into that article and instead of criticizing it I think they should be congradulated fo getting it published in Parachutist. And for those who still want to criticize it put your money where your mouth is and write one better. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #19 December 6, 2003 Its funny but a year ago I had to seek the advice of several staff members regarding a night wingsuit issue for which I was denied permission. Two of which were the dropzones very experienced S&TA's, one the manager the other a skydiver long in experience and regarded as legendary. Neither with personal wingsuit experience but several decades in the sport and years of conducting night ops. The third was a one of the Free fly instructors with tons of night experience and more wingsuit experience ( at the time ) than myself but not "nightwing" experience. A year ago these were the experts for the situation, No BMI instructors to rely on. I felt they did a good and safe job on their advice based only on their collective experience and doubt the presence of a certified BMI would have changed the go-no go permission. Its now over a year later, we have a new manager and a certified BMI at our dropzone and will probably have more soon. But you can not disregard this experience if you are implored to and its all thats available. Perris is a big DZ but its no Deland when it comes to wingsuit knowledge, its still not. There are too many small DZs out there that will have only their S&TAs to rely on and hopefully there will be good educational material for them to use whether its from the BM website, the manual or the SIM. I would no sooner take up wingsuit flying without an experienced "mentor" to rely on than I would start base jumping without an experienced mentor. Its one reason I would like to take our S&TA on his first wingsuit jump, he has agreed, just waiting for a good opportunity. After 18,000 jumps I think its time he broadens his horizons. BTW: the replies to my nightwing request was " Hell no! Wait till I'm gone and you can do what you want . But not tonight!" "Why would you want too"? and " I personally don't see anything wrong with it right now and as soon as the new and dangerous perception goes away and we see more of them we won't even be having this discussion." You guess who said what. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #20 December 6, 2003 Personally, I think the article was great. More to the point, I think it's greatest in that it got published in Parachutist. It will absolutely open doors for us as a whole and will definitley pique interest in our discipline from the masses. Like was just stated: if you can do a better job, write the article and get it published. I believe my only gripe might be that my name is not on the by-line, and that the article didn't do a good enough job of pointing people to dropzone.com. Peace, Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kevin922 0 #21 December 6, 2003 QuoteCheck here on the 10th, although, I would image that Kevin and Steve retain the copyright so could reproduce it on their website? The article will be reproduced on http://www.flybirdman.com in january, to give parachutist exclusiveness during the publication month. Kevin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #22 December 11, 2003 QuoteCheck here on the 10th, although, I would image that Kevin and Steve retain the copyright so could reproduce it on their website? Hmm, the page has been updated but it's the only article without a "More" link... :-)Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kevin922 0 #23 December 11, 2003 QuoteQuoteCheck here on the 10th, although, I would image that Kevin and Steve retain the copyright so could reproduce it on their website? Hmm, the page has been updated but it's the only article without a "More" link... :-) Dang! that stinks :) well check back next month on flybirdman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kevin922 0 #24 January 7, 2004 Just a bump to let people know the scans are up, check the front page of flybirdman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
