genoyamamoto 0 #1 November 21, 2003 I just read "Canopy Relative Work", published in the early 80's and in the back of the book it says you can actually go from forward flight, almost stall the canopy and start flying it backwards!!! Have you ever done that? Is it a standard thing to practice to get to know your canopy better? Thanks! -G Gotta go... plaything needs to spank me Feel the hate... Photos here Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
relyon 0 #2 November 21, 2003 It depends on the canopy. Earlier larger and longer-lined F-111 canopies (eg. the StratoCloud, Pegasus, etc.) would most definitely fly backwards. I've also seen Andy Farrington do it with a Parafoil when he was jumping accuracy. Looks wierd as the canopy is deflated, yet deployed. Wouldn't want to land it. The newer ZP CRW canopies (eg. Lightnings, Triathlons) don't seem to be able to do it. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
genoyamamoto 0 #3 November 21, 2003 Do you have any ideas as to why the newer canopies can't do this? Your post seems to imply that line-length may be a factor. Just curious. Thanks for the info! Gotta go... plaything needs to spank me Feel the hate... Photos here Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 36 #4 November 21, 2003 Are you talking about something more than a traditional stall? W Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murrays 0 #5 November 22, 2003 My old Pegasus did this very well....stall it, hold it and wait for the pilot chute to blow back in front of the canopy.-- Murray "No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
genoyamamoto 0 #6 November 23, 2003 Cool! Seems like I may never see it tho unless someone busts out an old canopy, unless there are people that still do this sort of thing. If you have any video, i'd love to see it. Thanks! Gotta go... plaything needs to spank me Feel the hate... Photos here Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
batbex 0 #7 November 24, 2003 I'm only a baby and new - but you could try being 105 pounds and starting out on a 280 - you can not only go backwards(and most often do) you can also go up! - it's really not that much fun - quite disconcerting actually Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #8 November 24, 2003 Heh heh I don't think being blown backwards is what's meant here Although, I know the feeling Some canopies are actually capable of flying backwards a bit. I'd think this would be most easily accomplished with a big canopy that also has holes in the bottom, like a Classic or similar accuracy canopy? That way it would stay inflated better I presume? ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murrays 0 #9 November 25, 2003 QuoteCool! Seems like I may never see it tho unless someone busts out an old canopy, unless there are people that still do this sort of thing. If you have any video, i'd love to see it. Thanks! One of my fellow oldtimer buddies still jumps a Pegasus....will try and remember to get you some video in the spring.-- Murray "No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jonstark 8 #10 November 25, 2003 It is a skill used regularly in BASE jumping when opening with a 180 turn facing a wall or object. Stop the canopy and fly it backwards away from the object then turn around. I used to have a Strato-Flyer that I would stall completely then recover by letting go of the toggles. As it would surge forward I would pull down on the front risers. This would cause it to not fully reinflate. The end cells would remain deflated and sometimes I could get only the center cell to remain inflated. I'd then climb on top of the slider and sit there while steering with the control lines and land it normally. The end cells always reinflated during the flare. It looked like hell and was a pretty bumpy ride but I enjoyed it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
genoyamamoto 0 #11 November 25, 2003 Thanks everyone for the information. Please tell me if you are in California and decide to fly your canopy backwards. I'd love to see it. Gotta go... plaything needs to spank me Feel the hate... Photos here Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #12 November 26, 2003 It starts by stalling the canopy. The cells deflate and the top skin falls on to the bottom skin. If you hold it long enough usually the end cells wrap backwards and touch. It now looks like a triangular, single surface canopy. The PC blow over the nose and you can steer by raising a toggle a little, going backwards. Not anywhere near as fast as forward. You're also coming down pretty fast. It's a steady state stall. The wing is not developing lift but the single surface is providing resistance and some directional control.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #13 November 26, 2003 Guess you could ask any australians here: I was just browsing the Australian parachuting regulations. It says there in a section about CReW: 6.5.2. PREREQUISITES TO CRW: Before commencing CRW training the candidate should: (a) Have at least an APF Parachutist Certificate "A"; (b) Have a sound knowledge and understanding of the flight characteristics of the canopy to be used, demonstrated by the ability to - Land consistently in the pit; - Perform front riser turns; - Steer the canopy with one brake on and one brake off; - Fly the canopy backward; - Use stall and recovery techniques; (c) Have completed a course of instruction covering the basic aspects of CRW, and has had his/her log book so endorsed by the Chief Instructor; (d) Have equipment that is suitable for CRW. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
genoyamamoto 0 #14 November 27, 2003 oooo that sounds scary and I don't think the S&TA would appreciate me trying to perform this maneuver at my tender age. Think i'll hold off on this for a while! But someday... Gotta go... plaything needs to spank me Feel the hate... Photos here Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
genoyamamoto 0 #15 November 27, 2003 Thanks! So who's from Australia around here? Gotta go... plaything needs to spank me Feel the hate... Photos here Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #16 November 27, 2003 Not all canopies will do this reliably. It may very well be that what ever you end up with for your first rig won't do this, at least not and stay stable. But these are the kinds of flight characteristics you need to explore, up high, when you get your own rig and get comfortable with all of the more normal flight aspects. Blue ones, and it is scary.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spike 0 #17 November 27, 2003 Scott Miller will put you through this if you take one of his canopy control courses. Though he's doing it as part of an excercise in finding, passing through and recovering from the stall point. Usefull for exploring the performance range of your canopy. But as a byproduct, you learn how to fly backwards. You try this way high and pull the toggles down until you find the stall point and then you keep on holding the toggles there. If you pull a little more down then as Terry said the tail will pull round and depending upon the canopy will eventually form a (funny) round or the sides of the tail will keep on fight for dominance. Either way you stop going forward and relative to the ground you start going backwards and down (majorly). It feels VERY scary, especially if your looking up watching yourself turn a perfectly good canopy into something that looks very like a bag of washing. Thoughts like "why am I doing this?" ran through my head. Scott drums it into you (and this is very important) that the trick for recovery is to stay very calm and when your done playing, let the toggles back up sloooooowly. If you just whip the toggles up then the canopy will dive and whip you round. At best you'll get a huge number of line twists, at worst the canopy will collapse underneath you! Looks wierd from the ground too. I've not seen it done, but I recall it being said that the way to loop the loop under canopy was from very deep brakes. And remember talk to your coach/mentor before you do this and always do it high. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bch7773 0 #18 November 28, 2003 Quote It feels VERY scary, especially if your looking up watching yourself turn a perfectly good canopy into something that looks very like a bag of washing. Thoughts like "why am I doing this?" ran through my head. Scott drums it into you (and this is very important) that the trick for recovery is to stay very calm and when your done playing, let the toggles back up sloooooowly. If you just whip the toggles up then the canopy will dive and whip you round. At best you'll get a huge number of line twists, at worst the canopy will collapse underneath you! amen to that. I have done this a couple times on my triathalon. I didn't hold it long enough to check if I was flying backwards, but I could definitely feel myself falling a lot faster. And I definitely stopped getting forward speed. And its also true about letting the toggles up slowly at the end... I forgot about that, and I let em up real quick, and the canopy gave me a nice popping noise and whipped me around. I can tell you, its not fun when you think you just ripped a seam under canopy MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
genoyamamoto 0 #19 November 28, 2003 I'll keep an eye out for him. I wonder if he ever comes out to California to teach his course. By the way, do you guys think it's ever TOO early to learn this canopy control things? I mean will I benifit more after gaining a certain amount of experience or are these courses beneficial to people of all skill levels? Thanks! Gotta go... plaything needs to spank me Feel the hate... Photos here Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
selbbub78 0 #20 November 28, 2003 Definitly keep an eye out for Scott Miller, and I don't think it's ever too early to do canopy control courses, and such for yourself. I took Scott's course when he was in Jersey, when I had seventy some jumps (granted I only have 121 now), but it helped me so much, and I learned SO much from his course too. I just wish I had taken it sooner."Women fake orgasms - men fake whole relationships" – Sharon Stone "The world is my dropzone" (wise crewdog quote) "The light dims, until full darkness pierces into the world."-KDM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spike 0 #21 November 28, 2003 Likewise, I wish I'd gone on a canopy control course way way sooner than I did. FJC pays far too little attention to canopy skills imho. You simulate, exits, posture, dummy pulls and emergency procedures, like there's no tomorrow. But canopy control is like an afterthought. Your BI tells you... pull the left toggle to turn left, the right... and when your about head high, pull both in about the time it takes to say Flare, and don't worry, you'll here me on the radio, do exactly what I say and you'll land fine... maybe some stuff about plf's... and thats it. I guess we don't "simulate" canopy flights because technically its hard to do. At Langar when I did my fjc they had a fan trainer, you were hooked up into a harness on a 20ft frame. You jumped off and it lowered you forwards and down, pretty much like a normal round canopy descent. Now its not a perfect simulation and only shows you the last 20ft, but at least you had "some" idea of what was coming. But I've not seen a fan trainer anywhere else and I've met a fair few novice jumpers who look confused when you say plf. As I say canopy control, the cinderalla of fjc. Oops... sorry, but there is way more to flying canopies than most people know. Find the crw dogs at your dz and talk to them. These are the guys that know how to do survival stuff really really well. They can fly forward like the average joe, but they know the cool stuff like flying sideways, backwards, sinking etc... I'm not a crw dog, but they have my full respect. [/rant off] and I think a downplane taken to the basement looks every bit as cool as a swoop. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
usedtajump 1 #23 January 29, 2004 Used to do this while doing demos. Wuffos usually think you're going to die because it looks like there's no way it would ever reinflate.The older I get the less I care who I piss off. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TribalTalon 0 #24 March 8, 2004 Yep.. sure have. today i was actually goofing around flying my canopy backwards. i have a 170 spectre loaded at about 1:1.14, what i was doing was just stalling the canopy until the pilot chute goes over to the front, it does seem to start dropping quickly and it's pretty tricky to control, its not exactly really stable. its easy to recover from, just slowly let the toggles up. i got bored after a while, and went backwards, then let the toggles up VERY fast, and the canopy turned into a ball of shit for about 500 feet, and took its time reinflating, then took me through about 5 360s VERY fast. it was quite a ride! *btw next weekend i'll have one of my friends tape me and take some pics, so yall can see it for yourself. :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krkeenan 0 #25 March 8, 2004 Quote*btw next weekend i'll have one of my friends tape me and take some pics, so yall can see it for yourself. :) That will be cool to see. You can put it in this forum or your friends can post it in the "Incidents" forum for you, depending on how it turns out. kevin====================== Seasons don't fear the Reaper, nor do the Wind, the Sun, or the Rain... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
