JohnRich 4 #1 August 19, 2003 I'll throw this out here just for general interest. I've been jumping 25 years and have never seen this before. A problem developed with my parachute rig last weekend. The B-12 snap for one leg strap on my Racer developed a minor hitch. I discovered it on the ground, so it wasn't a problem. Even if it had done this in the air, I think it is highly unlikely it would have caused a problem. But, you can't be too careful with this stuff. If a leg strap came undone, the consequences of spinning-in could be disastrous. The attached photo shows the problem with the spring-loaded gate, which folds inward to allow you to insert the "loop" end. After insertion of the loop end, it then swings back shut to keep the hook contained inside the snap. However, a small tab of metal which aligns that gate with the steel hook, has worn off. Without this, the gate springs open further than it should, giving rise to the fear that the loop-end could slide out of the snap. Ack! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #2 August 19, 2003 John, How old is your gear? I think it's served you well and you could move on. And that this might just be the first in a line of things that may start to really wear out for you on your gear. I am really glad that you found this on the ground, though! Although the legstrap probably would have stayed on in the air, it may not have, which, obviously, would have been very bad.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #3 August 19, 2003 QuoteHow old is your gear? I think it's served you well and you could move on. And that this might just be the first in a line of things that may start to really wear out for you on your gear. It sounds like you are jumping to a conclusion that the gear is "too old" without even having an answer to your question about how old it is. That's odd... And I would say that it's not so much the "age" of the rig, but how often it has been jumped that really counts. The rig is well-used, with about 1,500 jumps on it, but still has life left in it. I'm not going to throw away a good rig, for the wont of a $20 B-12 snap repair. That's like trading in your car for a new one because the ashtray is full. Quotethe legstrap probably would have stayed on in the air, it may not have... The natural tension should keep the loop inside the snap, unless you do a maneuver where you pull your legs up and let slack get in the leg straps. Also, the hinged gate is pressed up against your hip, which also keeps it from swinging open as far as is shown in the photo. And the photo shows the maximum deflection possible, and even with that, it doesn't look like the hook could slip out of the snap. So I doubt this could actually create an emergency. It's just disconcerting to look down and see it trying to open up... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #4 August 19, 2003 QuoteIt sounds like you are jumping to a conclusion that the gear is "too old" without even having an answer to your question about how old it is. That's odd... So... how old is it? Age wise? the color of the type 13 kinda gives it away that it's been around awhile. Just curious.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #5 August 19, 2003 QuoteSo... how old is it? Age wise? the color of the type 13 kinda gives it away that it's been around awhile. How can you tell that from the color, when you don't even know what the color looked like when it started out new? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #6 August 19, 2003 ... it started out brown... and still is...Slightly fade. I've been a rigger for over 10 years. It APPEARS to be the old bounce and blend colors that were so popular a while back ... I'm just curious, nothing more.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #7 August 19, 2003 The 'hair' is a pretty good indication. Just tell us...People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueSBDeath 2 #8 August 20, 2003 This was a common problem with belly worts, the repeated use just wares the tip down. You can cut it off and order the old screw together type from Para-Gear. It is item # H392, "quick ejector, separable non-adjustable".BSBD...........Its all about Respect, USPA#-7062, FB-2197, Outlaw 499 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #9 August 20, 2003 John, I'm sorry, you got the wrong impression from my post. I was just honestly curious. I know that you're meticulous with your gear and that even if it was as old as I am, it is probably in as good of shape as the rig I bought a year ago. Sorry about the confusion in my previous post. (Hey, you're coming to the AOT boogie, right?)--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blahr 0 #10 August 20, 2003 Quote How can you tell that from the color, when you don't even know what the color looked like when it started out new? Still havent said how old it is Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GroundZero 0 #11 August 20, 2003 Airworthy is not determined by calander age alone... (but the brown... my guess is 1985) Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikeat10500 9 #12 August 20, 2003 I doubt it's much older than mine...the container is 21 years old and reserve is 24yrs.----------------------------------- Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1 Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #13 August 20, 2003 QuoteThis was a common problem with belly worts, the repeated use just wares the tip down. You can cut it off and order the old screw together type from Para-Gear. It is item # H392, "quick ejector, separable non-adjustable". The snap in question is a B-12 type snap, not a "quick ejector." To my knowledge the B-12 does not come in a separable version. Chest mount reserves did not use either B-12's or quick ejectors, they used a butterfly snap such as items H411 and H413 in ParaGear. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #14 August 20, 2003 The rig is well-used, with about 1,500 jumps on it, but still has life left in it. I'm not going to throw away a good rig, for the wont of a $20 B-12 snap repair. That's like trading in your car for a new one because the ashtray is full. John, The good news is the B-12 should only cost you about $7 to $8. The bad news is the harness has to come apart to replace it and that will run quite a bit more then $20. Type 13 has not been used for more years than I care to remember and chances are the manufacture is no longer in business. 1500 jumps seems like you may have gotten your moneys worth. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #15 August 20, 2003 I had Jump Shack do some harness work done on my Racer a couple of years ago (I had hip rings installed). The estimate to do the work was $200. It ended up taking much longer then they thought, but still only charged me the $200. The point is that major structural work is costly, and you could probably pick up a container half the age of your current one (no offense, really) for under $500. Considering the size of the canopies you're jumping, there should be a good selection in the classifieds of this website. I know you think it's a perfectly good container, but keep in mind the failure was excessive wear on a metal component which put it out of operable specification. Thats an awful lot of wear, and I'm sure that other components have experienced similar wear. Besides, if you have over 4000 jumps, you deserve a new container. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kevin922 0 #16 August 20, 2003 QuoteQuoteSo... how old is it? Age wise? the color of the type 13 kinda gives it away that it's been around awhile. How can you tell that from the color, when you don't even know what the color looked like when it started out new? So are you saying everyone is wrong, it's the newest thing out on the market? :) I'd have to venture to say based on the looks of not only the color but the gear that it is older.. And if that isn't the color when it "started off new" then it definately has seen some years.. so how old is the question? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #17 August 20, 2003 The webbing looks like the "bounce and blend' colours that were in fashion during the early 1980s. I recently retired my sand-coloured 1985 Mirage. Type 13 is still used by Flying High, Jump Shack and several other manufacturers. Jump Shack had a booth at PIA 2003, so I suspect they are still in business. John Sherman was his usual loud, opinionated self. I would not use a screw-in Quick Ejector Snap to replace your worn-out hardware, heck I would not use a QE snap on my ex-wife's gear. Replacement B-12 Snaps are inexpensive form Para-Gear, but it will require a couple hours of labour to dismantle the hip joint and sew it back together. This work can only be done by a Master Rigger who has a Class 7 sewing machine or a manufacturer. Expect to pay more than US$100 for the repair and DO NOT JUMP that harness until it has been repaired. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #18 August 20, 2003 Quoteheck I would not use a QE snap on my ex-wife's gear Rob, you would have loved the old Vector2 I put about 150 jumps on a while back (before I bought my Wings). The rig was/is in great shape, well maintained and was given to the A&M Skydiving club by an Old Ag who bought a new rig and didn't need his old one anymore. When I got it, I thought it had B-12s at first glance, but then I looked at it again, both connectors on the leg straps were QEs. Needless to say it worried me conserdably. I would have zip-tied the handle down or something like that, but it was very hard to put the rig on without them (the rig was a little small)... Yeah, I know this didn't really pertain the the thread, but I though you as well as a couple others might get a kick (or a wince) out of that.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #19 August 20, 2003 QuoteThe webbing looks like the "bounce and blend' colours that were in fashion during the early 1980s. I recently retired my sand-coloured 1985 Mirage. Type 13 is still used by Flying High, Jump Shack and several other manufacturers. Jump Shack had a booth at PIA 2003, so I suspect they are still in business. John Sherman was his usual loud, opinionated self. I would not use a screw-in Quick Ejector Snap to replace your worn-out hardware, heck I would not use a QE snap on my ex-wife's gear. Replacement B-12 Snaps are inexpensive form Para-Gear, but it will require a couple hours of labour to dismantle the hip joint and sew it back together. This work can only be done by a Master Rigger who has a Class 7 sewing machine or a manufacturer. Expect to pay more than US$100 for the repair and DO NOT JUMP that harness until it has been repaired. You have once again said the same things other people have already posted only added your personal opinion of John Sherman and QE's.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #20 August 20, 2003 Quote... it started out brown... and still is...Slightly fade. I've been a rigger for over 10 years. It APPEARS to be the old bounce and blend colors that were so popular a while back ... Correct, it is brown. But there has also been a tan color available in the past, and faded brown can look like new tan. The degree of fading will vary depending upon exposure to sunlight, geographic location, whether the rig is stored in a dark closet all winter, and so on. So I don't think trying to judge the age of a rig from the degree of color-fading is going to be very reliable. Yes, I get my rigs in the old-fashioned bounce-and-blend colors. But just because I use an old-fashioned color pattern, doesn't mean the rig is that old. The Jump Shack still offers brown as a color selection on new Racer rigs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #21 August 20, 2003 QuoteThis was a common problem with belly worts, the repeated use just wares the tip down. You can cut it off and order the old screw together type from Para-Gear. This isn't a quick-eject clip, but a B-12 snap. Anyway, the rigger I'm seeing tonight to fix it says he can punch out the pin holding that "gate" in place, install another gate taken from another B-12 snap, and attach with a new rivet-pin to fix it. This technique will avoid having to rip apart the leg strap stitching to install an entirely new B-12 snap, at great trouble and expense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueSBDeath 2 #22 August 20, 2003 Your point is well taken Sparky, however, the quick ejector is the easyest and quickest fix to this situation. Much less $$$$$ too BSBD...........Its all about Respect, USPA#-7062, FB-2197, Outlaw 499 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueSBDeath 2 #23 August 20, 2003 Never mindBSBD...........Its all about Respect, USPA#-7062, FB-2197, Outlaw 499 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #24 August 20, 2003 QuoteStill havent said how old it is Nor will I, because it is irrelevant. If age alone was the factor, then the other B-12 snap on the other leg strap should have the same problem. It doesn't. Nor has it been a problem for me on previous rigs that I used even longer than I've had this one. So, the problem is not age. The problem is that there is something different about this particular B-12 snap. Maybe the little nub of metal that makes it swing closed into just the right position was smaller than usual when it was manufactured. Maybe I banged that snap against the plane on exit and sheared that little nub clean off. Who knows? But it ain't just age. Usage is what counts. That snap had been sticking all weekend, but it stuck in the closed position, so it wasn't a safety problem. I just had to apply more pressure to get my leg strap off after landing. That was a clue that something was wearing out, or was misaligned. This whole "age" issue is just a red herring argument. It reminds me of those who cry "what was the canopy size?" every time someone gets hurt doing a low hook turn. In my opinion, those accidents aren't caused by small canopies - they're caused by errors in judgement by the users, or sometimes freak wind conditions. So let's not get side-tracked on something that isn't a factor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #25 August 20, 2003 QuoteThe good news is the B-12 should only cost you about $7 to $8. The bad news is the harness has to come apart to replace it... In another post I describe how a rigger can replace just the defective "gate" piece, without having to unstitch the harness to replace the B-12 snap. Hopefully... QuoteType 13 has not been used for more years than I care to remember... Jump Shack still uses it: "we use MIL Spec material and uni-body construction. This technique provides for less fabric to be used and the Mil spec requires stronger fabric. Therefore it is lighter and stronger. Part of that stronger material is the "Black" trace type 13 webbing." See www.jumpshack.com and click on "Products". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
