aliengirl 0 #1 August 4, 2003 My name is Cindy P. I just bought a Sabre 120 that has 250 jumps on it...my first rig!! I have about 50 jumps myself and weigh 110-115 pounds. Everyone at my dropzone here in FL seems to think this is the best size canopy for me. I've jumped a Sabre 135 a few times (and loved it), but never a 120. But now I'm reading things on the internet that suggest I weigh too much for a 120. I'm a little freaked out about it now and don't know what to do. Does anyone have any insight??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CloudOnMyTongue 0 #2 August 4, 2003 From what I heard that sounds too high of a wingloading. BUT WHAT DO I KNOW. It's too late anyway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #3 August 4, 2003 Loading a canopoy 1:1 is the MAX that I would let a friend do on their first canopy. If they were a light jumper (under 130 lbs) I would advise them to jump nothing smaller than a 150. This is my inexperienced opinion. What I think you should do is find someone at your DZ with a lot of experience who has a 150 or similar and trade them temporarily or maybe even permanently."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #4 August 4, 2003 What kind of canopy did you learn on?Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
noods 0 #5 August 4, 2003 Hi Cindy, you say 'everyone' at your dz thinks this canopy is a good choice for you but have you asked the instructors at your dz, they should know you and your ability and should offer you the best advice. I'd be interested to know what you've been reading that has freaked you out? Try this link to pd's website which relates to wing loading on the sabre and gives pd's recommendations http://www.performancedesigns.com/sabre.htm At the end of the day, if you are not happy and confident in the canopy you're jumping, stay safe and don't jump it (at least until your confidence and ability builds), hope that helps ed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aliengirl 0 #6 August 4, 2003 Not sure about the type of canopy in the student rigs I used but by my 10th jump, I was jumping a Sabre 170. I quickly transitioned to a Sabre 150, and have just started jumping a Sabre 135. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aliengirl 0 #7 August 4, 2003 QuoteHi Cindy, you say 'everyone' at your dz thinks this canopy is a good choice for you but have you asked the instructors at your dz, they should know you and your ability and should offer you the best advice. I'd be interested to know what you've been reading that has freaked you out? Try this link to pd's website which relates to wing loading on the sabre and gives pd's recommendations http://www.performancedesigns.com/sabre.htm At the end of the day, if you are not happy and confident in the canopy you're jumping, stay safe and don't jump it (at least until your confidence and ability builds), hope that helps ed My instructors are the ones telling me they think it's a good size for me. And I did read some things on PD's website. They implied that you NEVER go a lb over the max weight. Would you suggest I jump it once (once I feel comfortable enough to do so) and see how it feels? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #8 August 4, 2003 QuoteNot sure about the type of canopy in the student rigs I used but by my 10th jump, I was jumping a Sabre 170. I quickly transitioned to a Sabre 150, and have just started jumping a Sabre 135. That makes a huge difference. Most people are use to students jumping nothing smaller than a 200 threw thier student progression. While I know of 2 DZs that put smaller students out on sabre 150s on thier later levels. (16 level programs) So knowing the above and as a smaller jumper 105 w/o gear, I'd have recommended staying with the 135, just cause it could get you out of trouble while you were still learning. On the other hand only your instructors know what is right for you, but I highly recommend a canopy course no matter what canopy you get, and since you are in FL that should be fairly easy to do.Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
noods 0 #9 August 4, 2003 Your instructors obviously have confidence in your abilities to handle this canopy. I personally would wait until I had a few more jumps on the 135 and was more confident, if you choose to jump the 120 I would suggest you do it when there is some wind and not on a nil wind day. Having said all of this I don't know you or your ability, your instructors do, I'm simply suggesting you err on the side of caution. Safe jumping ed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #10 August 4, 2003 I noticed in your profile you didn't include your home DZ where "everyone" agrees that this a good canopy for you. Your Sabre 120 will have a higher performance envelope than a Sabre 170 at the same loading. The smaller canopy will have lower parasitic drag in comparison to the larger canopy. Due to this, it is neccesarry to adjust the reccomended wing loading when you get into this situation. That said, even with excellent canopy control (for your level of expereince) it might be wise to shelf the 120 for a bit, and spend some more time with the 135. It might also be wise to do a search on this forum for statistics regarding the fatalities under open canopies. Someone did a fantastic job of organizing all the relevant info into one post. You will find that many of the fatalities were low time jumpers, on canopies that were "okay in the best case scenario". The incidents were not people attempting high performance landings, but making some typical mistakes newer jumpers make, and putting themselves into the "worst case scenario". You should be able to locate a 135 or bigger you could use for a little while. Check with local jumpers who may have something in the back of the closet, or call the manufacturers and see about a longer term demo. There may be a local jumper who is ready for a 120, who would swap thier current canopy with you untill you are ready for the 120. Just some things to think about. Be safe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #11 August 4, 2003 Congradulations on the first rig.... My first response to this is...If you have to ask, its a bad thing. If you are not comfertable with it, then you will not be as relaxed. Several people here have sugested canopy classes...A great idea. And others have sugested trading canopies with someone..Again a great idea... I would do both."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tinfoil 0 #12 August 4, 2003 My $0.02 Just going by your weight, experience, and canopy size, I think you made the right decision. It seems to be a canopy you will be able to enjoy for a long time. Listen to your instructors, as they have seen you under canopy and would be the best people to give feedback to you. “- - Sumo is the greatest of sports. It has power, grace, speed and cluture. And most importantly, two fat bastards smacking the shit out of each other. ” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fozchek 0 #13 August 4, 2003 QuoteMy $0.02 Just going by your weight, experience, and canopy size, I think you made the right decision. It seems to be a canopy you will be able to enjoy for a long time. Listen to your instructors, as they have seen you under canopy and would be the best people to give feedback to you. Just my $0.02: It is completely inappropriate for an individual with 14 jumps to be giving advice on canopy selection. A 120 is, in fact, a poor choice in canopy size for an individual that has 50 jumps. Aliengirl, if you are genuinely interested in making a canopy selection appropriate for your weight, skill level, and personal frame of reference, please feel free to contact me at Performance Designs to initiate a dialogue. Or, be careful to only follow the advice of individuals whose experience is tangible. There are many people on these forums that are qualified to offer you sound advice, but not all. -Gillian Parker Customer Service Representative Performance Designs, Inc. 386 738 2224 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
payback462 0 #14 August 4, 2003 QuoteJust going by your weight, experience, and canopy size, I think you made the right decision. i think somebody with 14 jumps really isnt in a position to give advice in this area edited to add: damn somebody beat me to it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #15 August 4, 2003 Amen!!!!.. This is one reason I love PD."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tinfoil 0 #16 August 4, 2003 QuoteQuoteIt is completely inappropriate for an individual with 14 jumps to be giving advice on canopy selection. But I didn't give advice on canopy selection, I gave my opinion. Hence the "My $0.02" and "I think" and "It seems". My advice was for Aliengirl to talk to her instructors as they have seen her under canopy. “- - Sumo is the greatest of sports. It has power, grace, speed and cluture. And most importantly, two fat bastards smacking the shit out of each other. ” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #17 August 4, 2003 I think his issue...and mine is from QuoteJust going by your weight, experience, and canopy size, I think you made the right decision. And his point was with 14 jumps you don't know enough to make that kind of statement. Look at it this way you are giving advice to someone with more jumps than you. How is it they are not sure, but you can be? Not trying to slam you, but this group will slam you if you speak out without the experience...Hell I just had a guy call me to the carpet over something I said. And I think I have more jumps than him. With 14 jumps...I would limit my advice. I would also not take everything here as the truth anyway. you can't teach skydiving over the internet, and you really don't know anyones qualifications. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #18 August 4, 2003 Let's not let this thread degenerate into anything less than main canopy selection advice. Giving advice about weather or not a canopy is appropriate is not easy. Not having ever seen the person fly a canopy or spoken to them in person makes it near impossible. Sometimes it is easy, i.e. someone with 100 jumps wanting a sub-100 sq ft cross-braced canopy because they can't seem to land their 220 very well. Usually it isn't clear-cut. Also what information the person seeking the advice gives and how they give it can make good advice bad. For example, "All my landings have been good", meaning they hurt a bit but they didn't break anything and only required jumpsuit repair for each on, or have been soft stand-ups less than 10 meters from target center. Profiles are usually looked at when advice is given for both the giver and receiver. If someone with 10,000 jumps offers advice it does carry more weight than someone with 10 jumps does. This is not to say that a lower-experienced jumper has nothing to offer, they do. Their advice comes from a unique perspective. I have had students ask another student that just completed the skydive that they are about to attempt for advice. They may have noticed something that I took for granted that may make the skydiver easier for the student. Discussing canopy choices with at least one Instructor is always good advice. Demo'ing canopies that your Instructors approve of is also good advice. But for anyone to advise you can (or for that matter, can't) handle a particular canopy without ever seeing you fly, is a guess at best. Predicting how someone will handle a smaller canopy than they have ever jumped before is difficult even after watching them fly and discussing it with them. Given all that, I don’t think you have learned everything you can from the 135 yet. It is good practice to learn flat turns, cross control turns, rear riser turns (brakes on and off), crosswind landings, accuracy, etc (Bill Von has a great list, a quick search will turn it up) under a canopy before downsizing. Downsizing slower than you are actually capable of doesn't hurt, downsizing faster than you are actually capable of does. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 1234hutch 0 #19 August 5, 2003 HIIn the long run you will be very happy with the 120. Your freinds have directed you to the canopy that will be THE ONE for you love for several hundred jumps. On the other hand the intial jumps may be a touch nerve racking. Select landing area that big and empty. Do not wory about landing close or being uncool if you land in the alternate. Promise yourself to be wings level at 100 feet. A slight cross wind landing is better than an abrubt turn into the wind that hurts you. A briuse goes away, bones take longer to heal. Stay cool Hutch Hutch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mollusc 0 #20 August 5, 2003 *** "And I did read some things on PD's website. They implied that you NEVER go a lb over the max weight." If this is what freaked you out I think you don't need to be worried. You will be far from the max weight. Another thing though is your wingload and canopy size vs control and experience. It is important to listen to your instructors. But you too have to feel comfortable and safe. If you don't feel safe on the 120 yet, wait. If you feel you can handle it, then go for it. Have fun and bee safe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #21 August 5, 2003 Everyone who's spanked themself in and killed/hurt themselves, felt they were "Ready for it". I hate to sound calloused, but this argument is tiring, people just aren't gonna learn. Pity cause I really prefer the idea of education not regulation. Unfortunately you just can't teach some people. With 50 jumps AlienGirl is WAY to inexperienced for a 120 - ask any manufacturer, or any experienced canopy pilot who can remember what it felt like to fly a canopy at 50 jumps (not all can)....of course....that doesn't stop people telling her that the 120 is just fine for her...reinforcing the notion that she's made a correct choice. But hey, it's not your (being those supporting the canopy choice) ass on the line.....right? IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TheMonkey 0 #22 August 5, 2003 QuoteA 120 is, in fact, a poor choice in canopy size for an individual that has 50 jumps. this is from the canopy manufacturer...imo that about covers it! Quoteplease feel free to contact me at Performance Designs to initiate a dialogue. i would take Gillian up on this, info straight from the horse's mouth (so to speak) --------------------- Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites aliengirl 0 #23 August 5, 2003 Thank you everyone for your input! I really do appreciate it....skydivers definitely look out for each other and I knew I'd be able to get some good solid opinions. I think I've decided to find a 135 and stick with that for a while before I jump into a 120. I'd much rather be safe. THANKS. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DJL 232 #24 August 5, 2003 A related question to experienced folks. Would you say that with a new light jumper that it's better for them to have something big and then start wearing weight vs. downsize if that canopy is found to be too big? Perhaps they're getting blown back alot.. thx"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Remster 24 #25 August 5, 2003 QuotePerhaps they're getting blown back alot.. If your are a novice and get blown back a lot (under a reasonable 1:1 wingload), you shouldnt be jumping, not adding 10lbs of lead.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Ron 7 #17 August 4, 2003 I think his issue...and mine is from QuoteJust going by your weight, experience, and canopy size, I think you made the right decision. And his point was with 14 jumps you don't know enough to make that kind of statement. Look at it this way you are giving advice to someone with more jumps than you. How is it they are not sure, but you can be? Not trying to slam you, but this group will slam you if you speak out without the experience...Hell I just had a guy call me to the carpet over something I said. And I think I have more jumps than him. With 14 jumps...I would limit my advice. I would also not take everything here as the truth anyway. you can't teach skydiving over the internet, and you really don't know anyones qualifications. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #18 August 4, 2003 Let's not let this thread degenerate into anything less than main canopy selection advice. Giving advice about weather or not a canopy is appropriate is not easy. Not having ever seen the person fly a canopy or spoken to them in person makes it near impossible. Sometimes it is easy, i.e. someone with 100 jumps wanting a sub-100 sq ft cross-braced canopy because they can't seem to land their 220 very well. Usually it isn't clear-cut. Also what information the person seeking the advice gives and how they give it can make good advice bad. For example, "All my landings have been good", meaning they hurt a bit but they didn't break anything and only required jumpsuit repair for each on, or have been soft stand-ups less than 10 meters from target center. Profiles are usually looked at when advice is given for both the giver and receiver. If someone with 10,000 jumps offers advice it does carry more weight than someone with 10 jumps does. This is not to say that a lower-experienced jumper has nothing to offer, they do. Their advice comes from a unique perspective. I have had students ask another student that just completed the skydive that they are about to attempt for advice. They may have noticed something that I took for granted that may make the skydiver easier for the student. Discussing canopy choices with at least one Instructor is always good advice. Demo'ing canopies that your Instructors approve of is also good advice. But for anyone to advise you can (or for that matter, can't) handle a particular canopy without ever seeing you fly, is a guess at best. Predicting how someone will handle a smaller canopy than they have ever jumped before is difficult even after watching them fly and discussing it with them. Given all that, I don’t think you have learned everything you can from the 135 yet. It is good practice to learn flat turns, cross control turns, rear riser turns (brakes on and off), crosswind landings, accuracy, etc (Bill Von has a great list, a quick search will turn it up) under a canopy before downsizing. Downsizing slower than you are actually capable of doesn't hurt, downsizing faster than you are actually capable of does. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1234hutch 0 #19 August 5, 2003 HIIn the long run you will be very happy with the 120. Your freinds have directed you to the canopy that will be THE ONE for you love for several hundred jumps. On the other hand the intial jumps may be a touch nerve racking. Select landing area that big and empty. Do not wory about landing close or being uncool if you land in the alternate. Promise yourself to be wings level at 100 feet. A slight cross wind landing is better than an abrubt turn into the wind that hurts you. A briuse goes away, bones take longer to heal. Stay cool Hutch Hutch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mollusc 0 #20 August 5, 2003 *** "And I did read some things on PD's website. They implied that you NEVER go a lb over the max weight." If this is what freaked you out I think you don't need to be worried. You will be far from the max weight. Another thing though is your wingload and canopy size vs control and experience. It is important to listen to your instructors. But you too have to feel comfortable and safe. If you don't feel safe on the 120 yet, wait. If you feel you can handle it, then go for it. Have fun and bee safe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #21 August 5, 2003 Everyone who's spanked themself in and killed/hurt themselves, felt they were "Ready for it". I hate to sound calloused, but this argument is tiring, people just aren't gonna learn. Pity cause I really prefer the idea of education not regulation. Unfortunately you just can't teach some people. With 50 jumps AlienGirl is WAY to inexperienced for a 120 - ask any manufacturer, or any experienced canopy pilot who can remember what it felt like to fly a canopy at 50 jumps (not all can)....of course....that doesn't stop people telling her that the 120 is just fine for her...reinforcing the notion that she's made a correct choice. But hey, it's not your (being those supporting the canopy choice) ass on the line.....right? IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheMonkey 0 #22 August 5, 2003 QuoteA 120 is, in fact, a poor choice in canopy size for an individual that has 50 jumps. this is from the canopy manufacturer...imo that about covers it! Quoteplease feel free to contact me at Performance Designs to initiate a dialogue. i would take Gillian up on this, info straight from the horse's mouth (so to speak) --------------------- Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aliengirl 0 #23 August 5, 2003 Thank you everyone for your input! I really do appreciate it....skydivers definitely look out for each other and I knew I'd be able to get some good solid opinions. I think I've decided to find a 135 and stick with that for a while before I jump into a 120. I'd much rather be safe. THANKS. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #24 August 5, 2003 A related question to experienced folks. Would you say that with a new light jumper that it's better for them to have something big and then start wearing weight vs. downsize if that canopy is found to be too big? Perhaps they're getting blown back alot.. thx"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #25 August 5, 2003 QuotePerhaps they're getting blown back alot.. If your are a novice and get blown back a lot (under a reasonable 1:1 wingload), you shouldnt be jumping, not adding 10lbs of lead.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
