DSE 3 #26 August 24, 2010 Quote well I disagree with the stabilizing platform theory. You dont need a giant fluid head to stabilize a small camera on the ground. But a giant camera on a undersized fluid head is useless. I feel the same about helmets. if your helmet fits right then a small helmet for small cameras is fine. Once again lets keep in mind the need of the average video flyer. I'm not talking about shooting a hollywood big budget movie here. true the metering and quality on cheaper cameras isnt as good but for the everyday consumer they will never notice or complain. It certainly isnt different enough to be considered unacceptable for the money they paid for the product. Lets keep in mind the investment and health risk for the skydiving videographer. I dont blame you for taking file format into consideration. Actually that is your most reasonable point when talking about the everyday videographer. Workflow is a very valid concern. I'm not going to argue over which model of litepanel you use. Yes they range from reasonable to very expensive. that wasnt my point, that was a random example. I am looking at my GoPro mount now and I assure you that it would take an act of God to get a line between it and the helmet, its such a ridiculous possibility that it seems stupid to be talking about it. Its certainly way less likely than snagging anything on that living room table called a FTP. And dont think Im discounting the FTP, Im not! If you need real estate then it is great. (lights, strobes, prosumer cameras, multiple cameras, etc....) But for the everyday video guy for normal consumer cameras it is not neccessary. Lets talk stabilization....What is stabilization in freefall? Why would a FTP be more stable? The only thing that makes it more stable is that it large sturdy tight fitting helmet, basically it balances heavy loads better absorbing vibration. And provides realestate to evenly mount your accessories. True if you are shooting tightly zoomed cameras the FTP might be a better platform. Otherwise it is not needed to shoot "stable" video. The key to stability is tight fitting helmet to prevent shuddering. If the helmet is appropriately loaded and fits tight it will not shudder. The mounts used have alot to do with this as well. Finally, one of the biggest factors is body orientation. how is the camera being presented to the wind. Of course I forgot the most important thing...you are always right. You might have a load of tech knowledge and experience but I think you relate it to skydiving poorly. you do have a huge ego though.....which is totally skydiver ANYONE who knows anything about video knows that small cameras are significantly more difficult to stabilize than large cameras. If that weren't the case, Zacuto, RedRock, Cambria, and SO MANY other small camera stabilizing systems wouldn't be in business (and thriving). Google em'. They've been around for years and years. Stabilizing small cameras. Trying to get small cameras to move as smoothly as large cameras. Including adding HUGE amounts of weight (sometimes as much as 18lbs). It's not a "theory," but rather a well-demonstrated understanding of physics and distance between focal length and imager. Which has greater stability being pushed through water, a canoe filled with water or a water-logged twig? Do you put the heavy guy as base or the lightest person you can find as base? (Different example, but since you want skydiving analogies...) I said nothing about metering (which is actually more intelligent on most palmcorders) and while quality is important (to me) it's still not relevant to this discussion. FTP-type helmets will always be more stable because they also limit movement and points of movement due to their design. Burble benefits go without mention, but heck...you already know all this, right? as far as "act of God"... riiiighhhhhttttt. Quote you do have a huge ego though.....which is totally skydiver Pot=kettle? You're right. I'm not at all the most awesomest skydiver in the world. One thing I do know is cameras and camera support systems whether we're dealing with crash cams or truck mounts. As relates to skydiving, it's all the same stuff. If the logic doesn't make sense to you, trot over to YouTube and look at all the jiggly small format cams shooting tandem vs FTP-type helmets with larger imagers and longer lens lengths. It's pretty obvious. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hallux 0 #27 August 24, 2010 stabilizing cameras on the ground and stabilizing cameras on someones head in freefall is like comparing apples to oranges. Would you add 18lbs to your helmet? FTP have positives as far as points of movement but they are also very non-aerodynamic in many position which creates more shake either induced by the wind or by the force one must apply to maintain head position. And the burble effect is on any helmet. smaller burble on smaller helmet but thats ok if you have a smalller camera. Its all relative. If you are head down or even on your back then the burble is no longer in play. I'm not going to argue that you get what you pay for with cameras, because its true. The issue is that its not worth it for the pay scale of tandem videos. All day with with large prosumer cameras and DSLR's...then all the negative health risk....not worth it! and the weight of the person in a base has nothing to do with stability it has to do with speed. but I get your point. wind resistance is another issue. I stuck my head out of a plane once with a FTP and big camera. It was the worst shakiest crap ever. If it had been a GoPro on a round helmet it would of looked great. TOO much surface area. as far as your GoPro mount pictures.....well thats comical. IF the mount was secured responsibly and intelligently then that would not happen. Also I would be willing to bet that in a unstable back deployment that line would pull completely underneath that mount. Was that a recreation? or a real incident? If real what was the situation that caused it. Simply using the 3M sticky is ignorant for alot of reasons. every piece of gear is a snag hazzard theoretically, even your appendages. Some risks come with this stuff that we do. I think my stance on this is that there are different tools for different jobs and to me jumping big cameras for tandem videos is ridiculous and jumping small cameras and giant helmets is not neccessary. The FTP is a great helmet but not needed to shoot good video. And snag hazzard is a term that is too loosely used Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hallux 0 #28 August 24, 2010 this logic is very sound and well said. I agree with you 100 percent. I suggest doing PT's for your helmet cutaway system also Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunnelfly 0 #29 August 24, 2010 QuoteMost people don’t even have blue ray at home and these ‘stick on’ cameras are filming in 1080… I don’t get your point. 1080 is the (electronic) resolution of the imaging chip, and doesn't say anything about the optical path. It's the same as thinking that the brand new cell phone with a 12 megapixel cam makes better pictures than the older DSLR with only 8MP... No.1 reason NOT to be an astronaut: ...You can't drink beer at zero gravity... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #30 August 25, 2010 Quotestabilizing cameras on the ground and stabilizing cameras on someones head in freefall is like comparing apples to oranges. Would you add 18lbs to your helmet? FTP have positives as far as points of movement but they are also very non-aerodynamic in many position which creates more shake either induced by the wind or by the force one must apply to maintain head position. No, it's not comparing apples and oranges. That's exactly why a few "big name" camera guys are adding not only 12lbs in weight, but also adding huge stabilzing arms (they look like crossbones, 26" in length) to their helmets. "simply using the 3M sticky" is what 99% of most people do with these cameras. Give it up. You're arguing for the point of arguing. If you'd read the forums, you'd find where two of us tested the pull strength of the 3M tape at the attachment point with an archery scale. I'm not advocating "large prosumer camcorders and heavy DSLR's." I am advocating safety. I jump with a CX series camera most of the time, and jump with anything from a G10 to a 40D for stills. No...I don't jump with a small format shit camera for paying customers. Audio sucks, video is poor, workflow for filebased is slower. There is zero reason for *me* to use a small format for paying customers. For AFF debrief...different story. I stand by my original point, and will go so far as to say that only a moron would suggest it's easier to break off a camera than have a helmet cutaway. For people searching for information, it's important they know this. Taking a risk that in an emergency situation that breaking off a camera will yield the proper result vs having a cutaway is irresponsible, foolish, and begging for trouble. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OG-Tahiti 0 #31 August 25, 2010 Quotethis logic is very sound and well said. I agree with you 100 percent. I suggest doing PT's for your helmet cutaway system also LMAO way to talk to yourself buddy, get help seriously... I know the internetz is serious business, but still... do get help"Common sense is not so common" - Voltaire Dudeist Skydiver #9 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
4dbill 0 #32 August 25, 2010 Quote That's exactly why a few "big name" camera guys are adding not only 12lbs in weight, but also adding huge stabilzing arms (they look like crossbones, 26" in length) to their helmets. I do not doubt you DSE, but I really would like to see a picture of this 26" long helmet stabilizer for freefall. 4DBill 4Dbill.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivefj 0 #33 August 25, 2010 QuoteRhys, choose which name you're going to post under. You can't be skydivefj and rhys. It's against TOS. It's also silly to have conversations with yourself. QuoteSkydivefj is my work log in and some things such as operational queries are not exclusivley for me, if I appoint another person to the operations role then they will be skydivefj, I am Rhys personally, and I could not make that reply under the skydivefj name as my personal beleifs are not necessarily representative of the entire company. It is not an alias. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Icon134 0 #34 August 25, 2010 QuoteQuotethis logic is very sound and well said. I agree with you 100 percent. I suggest doing PT's for your helmet cutaway system also LMAO way to talk to yourself buddy, get help seriously... I know the internetz is serious business, but still... do get helpOK, I'm confused... he was talking to me... and I'm definitely not hallux... despite the fact that the conversation has gotten off on a tangent from your question asking if the camera will break off... and implying that it is a sufficient alternative to a helmet cutaway system... I was merely reinforcing that it isn't an alternative... and hallux was agreeing with me...Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DSE 3 #35 August 25, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuotethis logic is very sound and well said. I agree with you 100 percent. I suggest doing PT's for your helmet cutaway system also LMAO way to talk to yourself buddy, get help seriously... I know the internetz is serious business, but still... do get helpOK, I'm confused... he was talking to me... and I'm definitely not hallux... despite the fact that the conversation has gotten off on a tangent from your question asking if the camera will break off... and implying that it is a sufficient alternative to a helmet cutaway system... I was merely reinforcing that it isn't an alternative... and hallux was agreeing with me... So you're saying that that doing PT's to break a camera off the helmet is an acceptable alternative to a cutaway system? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Icon134 0 #36 August 25, 2010 Quote So you're saying that that doing PT's to break a camera off the helmet is an acceptable alternative to a cutaway system? Wow... I never stated that... nor did I imply anything of the sort... I stated in both of my posts that assuming the camera mount will break is not in any way, shape or form, a sufficient alternative to dedicated helmet cutaway system... such as the cutaway system on an FTP... Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mccordia 73 #37 August 25, 2010 The fact that Gopro (and similar cameras) CAN break off a helmet in case of linesnag, is actually a worrying thing. As the 'easy' breaking is a reason I see more and more people (ad) Duc-tape and big metal bolts to the cameras to make sure they stay on and dont get lost due to breaking. Effectivly canceling the one 'safety feature' the camera has..JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Superfletch 1 #38 August 25, 2010 Quote Effectivly canceling the one 'safety feature' the camera has.. Personally... I don't see it as a 'safety feature'. I see it as a feature that places the whole thing in the Piece of Shit category. Gary "Superfletch" Fletcher D-26145; USPA Coach, IAD/I, AFF/I Videographer/Photographer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Decodiver 0 #39 August 25, 2010 At my DZ if you don't have a cutaway and want to jump a Go-Pro or any other camera/video you can't. Simple. Cheers, Coops. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites OG-Tahiti 0 #40 August 25, 2010 QuoteOK, I'm confused... he was talking to me... and I'm definitely not hallux... despite the fact that the conversation has gotten off on a tangent from your question asking if the camera will break off... and implying that it is a sufficient alternative to a helmet cutaway system... I was merely reinforcing that it isn't an alternative... and hallux was agreeing with me... My bad I took hallux for rhys and figured he forgot to relog before replying to himself. Looks like rhys other account got deleted and that added to my confusion :P My bad sorry hallux!!! And as you said I asked if it could be an alternative and got some sound replies from you guys and learned from it :)"Common sense is not so common" - Voltaire Dudeist Skydiver #9 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #41 August 25, 2010 Quote: Quote Effectivly canceling the one 'safety feature' the camera has.. Personally... I don't see it as a 'safety feature'. I see it as a feature that places the whole thing in the Piece of Shit category. Tongue Haha, while I agree that the mounts are less than perfect, I would not call them a piece of shit either. they are releatively new, and will be developed further I am sure. The strength of the mount and the quality of the footage are two separate issues. I never have said the mount breaking is a safetly feature, but I was arguing against the point that they are difficult to break, a helmet cutaway is the best solution, and even those are not perfect. I know the design has changed on the FTP buckle but when I first started jumping a guy had a FTP and almost lost it a few times due to the buckle coming open during the opening sequence... the buckle was changed but I am sure a few people would have lost thier setups that way, and a falling FTP loaded is more of a hazard than a falling go pro... My point is that the go pros are new, they are good in some respcts and bad in others. They are however more than adequade for commercial skydiving, unless the customer is paying big money for exceptional quality. People that use many$1000's of equipment and programs to produce a $70 dvd are just ripping themselves off. If the customer pays $hundreds for a DVD it is a differnt story. there is a thing called balance, and these small cameras a re balancing out the industry quite perfectly, but some are reluctant to admit that. Their egos take over from their common sence. But one thing is for sure, they are becoming extemely popular, they are not going away, they will increase in quality and lower in price. I suggest that everyone that mounts a go pro to thier helmet uses a cutaway system and not the shit cheap ones that have a washer, split pin and spring, those are not good. I made my own, but you can buy them for not mauch at all... I still have not worked our how i am going to mount a go pro to a helmet, I still use a CX100 for outside, but I think i will go for a contour s they can b side mounted and releatively flush."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hallux 0 #42 August 25, 2010 haha no prob OG. and DSE...do you really think i was talking about PT's to break a camera off.....thats funny. I meant pt's to get familiar with your helmets cutaway system. I mean if you are wearing it and might have to use it someday then dont you think you should have good muscle memory to find it? And yes I am somewhat being a smartass. Personally I have C4 rigged to my arms, legs and neck. That way if any of THE BIGGEST SNAG HAZZARDS become entangled i can cut them away. Also I staple the leg of student jumpsuits to their butts so that no tandem passenger legs can get in the way of my drogue. And yes i do enjoy arguing with you. Im not even sure what we are arguing about anymore, nor do I care. It is a good way to keep you talking and active in here though, which is entertaining for me. Also i enjoy your snobbish views and oversaturated opinion on really simple issues. Comical at times...Basically your experience and relationship with the camera/grip/tech world has skewed your ability to see things from the "normal" consumers view. Therefore this VASST experience has rendered most of your advice useless to the everyday skydiving videographer. When we need to put 25lbs of crap on a FTP and shoot a major motion picture then your advice will surely be helpful. The reality is that the normal consumer would be totally happy with GoPro quality footage. I know you have a wealth of tech knowledge but sometimes the simpler the better. Now lets talk snag hazzards. I dont think someone should be allowed to jump a helmet at all until 100 jumps because the helmet itself is a snag hazzard. And having to keep up with it and remember to buckle it is a distraction. At 150 jumps someone can add camera mount to the helmet...no camera just the mount. FOr they are not nearly ready for the risk of entaglement that a camera poses, nor the immense distraction and stress. Now with 50 more jumps they are certainly qualified to handle the camera. but only one because we dont want to get carried away. I say at 300 jumps now two cameras can be added because now they are totally able to predict snag hazzards and handle the situation like PRO's. They are also totally undistracted by it now. YOu know because they have 300 jumps and thats what matters, not the fact that it is something new for them. As far as that little 3M death trap of a GoPro....well it should be totally banned from this sport for its inmeasurable risk and incompatibility with HMA, spectra, and all modern line types. And worst of all we wouldnt want the FTP to get a complex or self esteem issues over its "small package". what are your views on the appropriate time to start jumping cameras? what makes someone mentally ready for it? And dont try to confuse and dazzle us with a sideshow of tech talk you sneaky spotted eagle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DSE 3 #43 August 25, 2010 QuoteTheir egos take over from their common sence. Quote I still use a CX100 for outside, Since a huge number of vidiots (most that I know) are using CX series camcorders, I'm having a hard time reconciling these statements, especially based on past posts. *** Audio on a GoPro and the Contour is horrible. People pay for videos in which they can hear themselves speak, shriek, and laugh. Audio is 70% of the picture experience. Picture quality of a GP or Contour compared to a CX is not nearly as good. Amount of time to transfer, decode, edit, encode AVC is significantly more lengthy than MPEG2 from a CX series camera. Form factor isn't significantly different. No preview No playback No zoom Relatively close in price ON snaps on, the other requires a mount that will range from a .50 thumbscrew to a 100.00 plate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jonntis 0 #44 August 26, 2010 Rhys, care to share your cutaway solution? I still use the shitty ones you mention... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RedBallz 0 #45 August 26, 2010 This was an interesting read. Being a noob(41 jumps as of today), I thought I would throw in my two cents on this... I currently have one of the new GoPro HD's that I use on my motorcycle routinely. I use it on the track and I use it on the street. For shooting simple videos for myself and friends, it works great. I certainly wouldn't try to seriously pawn off the vid it shoots to somebody for $70. I have yet to attach to my lid and jump with it. I am very hesitant to do this as all of the talk about the negatives of doing this that I've heard from the day I got my A license. If mounted properly, I have a hard time imagining the risks it poses in regards to it being a snag hazard. I would think that for it to get snagged, something else would have had to happen to cause it (like deploying on your back). Now, as far as it being a distraction, I can fully understand that. While 200 jumps may just be an arbitrary number, it is a good suggestion. I plan on waiting till I am at well over a hundred before mounting mine. One thing that I haven't heard being mentioned is to do some solo jumps after mounting it and getting used to having it there while not having another jumper with you as an additional distraction. I would think that this would be a good idea.Not one shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites theonlyski 3 #46 August 26, 2010 Quote While 200 jumps may just be an arbitrary number, it is a good suggestion. I plan on waiting till I am at well over a hundred before mounting mine. How well over 100? "I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #47 August 26, 2010 Quote Rhys, care to share your cutaway solution? I still use the shitty ones you mention... I developed mine with some parts from our riggers 'box of tricks', I made the little riser section and put thegrommet in. it is similar to the cookie composites system but in reverse. I used an old piece of cutaway cable that alredy had a swage on it and the yellow handle is from strong enterprises and it is an aftermarket flexi pin attachment for a drogue bridle, it was just lying around, I was going to make a handle but that was just there. In France it is mandatory to have a cutaway on all camera helmets and I made it when we went there for a comp, even though I think the liklihood of using it is quite minimal, I have heard of enough incidents that makes me feel I should always have one now. Anythong can happen to anyone, they are a bit like a hook knife, a toy you hope you never have to use. There is more than one way to skin a cat, but the spring and washer setup has a real chance of jamming up with a load on if you ask me."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #48 August 26, 2010 Quote While 200 jumps may just be an arbitrary number, it is a good suggestion. I plan on waiting till I am at well over a hundred before mounting mine. One thing that I haven't heard being mentioned is to do some solo jumps after mounting it and getting used to having it there while not having another jumper with you as an additional distraction. I would think that this would be a good idea. When I was learning we were allowed to jump a camera helmet at 100 jumps ( in New Zealand), we had to jump with it empty (no camera) for about 3 or 4 jumps to get used to the extra drag. and then we were into it. Cameras were big then, I had a sony trv18e (looks like a toaster)top mounted and a pentax SLR mounted upside down on the fore head (heller badass). I am not sure if that is the best way but that is how we did it, but our cameras were ' UGE" I'm sure you will be flamed for suggesting (well over) 100 jumps is adequate by others here, in many places the rules are more strict including (many places in) america. Some are ready at 100 jumps and some are not, we were all doing our first 100 jumps in a 3-4 month period compressed into about 5 a day in good weather focusing on a position of a cmera guy from before our very first jump. It really also comes down to currency too, most people ar not that current at or around 100 jumps! It is not so much the camera, its size or how good quality, it is about how much of a distraction the filming is having on your skydiving skills and your ability to skydive safely. For instance you may get flusterd making sure you are recording and foget to check your pin etc. etc. There are many scenarios. Make sure you have at the authorisaton from you S & TA and do it step by step many 2 ways. Once you get to 3 way or more with you filming and the others playing, the likihood of collisions become much much more. Keep it simple focus on your skydiving skills and safety."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DSE 3 #49 August 26, 2010 Quotehaha no prob OG. and DSE...do you really think i was talking about PT's to break a camera off.....thats funny. I meant pt's to get familiar with your helmets cutaway system. I mean if you are wearing it and might have to use it someday then dont you think you should have good muscle memory to find it? And yes I am somewhat being a smartass. Personally I have C4 rigged to my arms, legs and neck. That way if any of THE BIGGEST SNAG HAZZARDS become entangled i can cut them away. Also I staple the leg of student jumpsuits to their butts so that no tandem passenger legs can get in the way of my drogue. And yes i do enjoy arguing with you. Im not even sure what we are arguing about anymore, nor do I care. It is a good way to keep you talking and active in here though, which is entertaining for me. Also i enjoy your snobbish views and oversaturated opinion on really simple issues. Comical at times...Basically your experience and relationship with the camera/grip/tech world has skewed your ability to see things from the "normal" consumers view. Therefore this VASST experience has rendered most of your advice useless to the everyday skydiving videographer. When we need to put 25lbs of crap on a FTP and shoot a major motion picture then your advice will surely be helpful. The reality is that the normal consumer would be totally happy with GoPro quality footage. I know you have a wealth of tech knowledge but sometimes the simpler the better. Now lets talk snag hazzards. I dont think someone should be allowed to jump a helmet at all until 100 jumps because the helmet itself is a snag hazzard. And having to keep up with it and remember to buckle it is a distraction. At 150 jumps someone can add camera mount to the helmet...no camera just the mount. FOr they are not nearly ready for the risk of entaglement that a camera poses, nor the immense distraction and stress. Now with 50 more jumps they are certainly qualified to handle the camera. but only one because we dont want to get carried away. I say at 300 jumps now two cameras can be added because now they are totally able to predict snag hazzards and handle the situation like PRO's. They are also totally undistracted by it now. YOu know because they have 300 jumps and thats what matters, not the fact that it is something new for them. As far as that little 3M death trap of a GoPro....well it should be totally banned from this sport for its inmeasurable risk and incompatibility with HMA, spectra, and all modern line types. And worst of all we wouldnt want the FTP to get a complex or self esteem issues over its "small package". what are your views on the appropriate time to start jumping cameras? what makes someone mentally ready for it? And dont try to confuse and dazzle us with a sideshow of tech talk you sneaky spotted eagle. Your one warning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jonntis 0 #50 August 26, 2010 Quote I developed mine with some parts from our riggers 'box of tricks', I made the little riser section and put thegrommet in. it is similar to the cookie composites system but in reverse. I used an old piece of cutaway cable that alredy had a swage on it and the yellow handle is from strong enterprises and it is an aftermarket flexi pin attachment for a drogue bridle, it was just lying around, I was going to make a handle but that was just there. In France it is mandatory to have a cutaway on all camera helmets and I made it when we went there for a comp, even though I think the liklihood of using it is quite minimal, I have heard of enough incidents that makes me feel I should always have one now. Anythong can happen to anyone, they are a bit like a hook knife, a toy you hope you never have to use. There is more than one way to skin a cat, but the spring and washer setup has a real chance of jamming up with a load on if you ask me. Thanks, looks great. I might try to build a copy of it some day. For now I've got boneheads cutaway kit, and from ground testing it seems to work under pretty heavy load. I tried to build a similar myself, but couldn find a spring that was strong enough to be trusted for the task. Sweden has similar rules regarding cutaways. Camera helmet must have one, and it has to be proved to work under load before you jump it with cameras. Good idea IMO. /Jonathan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Icon134 0 #34 August 25, 2010 QuoteQuotethis logic is very sound and well said. I agree with you 100 percent. I suggest doing PT's for your helmet cutaway system also LMAO way to talk to yourself buddy, get help seriously... I know the internetz is serious business, but still... do get helpOK, I'm confused... he was talking to me... and I'm definitely not hallux... despite the fact that the conversation has gotten off on a tangent from your question asking if the camera will break off... and implying that it is a sufficient alternative to a helmet cutaway system... I was merely reinforcing that it isn't an alternative... and hallux was agreeing with me...Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #35 August 25, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuotethis logic is very sound and well said. I agree with you 100 percent. I suggest doing PT's for your helmet cutaway system also LMAO way to talk to yourself buddy, get help seriously... I know the internetz is serious business, but still... do get helpOK, I'm confused... he was talking to me... and I'm definitely not hallux... despite the fact that the conversation has gotten off on a tangent from your question asking if the camera will break off... and implying that it is a sufficient alternative to a helmet cutaway system... I was merely reinforcing that it isn't an alternative... and hallux was agreeing with me... So you're saying that that doing PT's to break a camera off the helmet is an acceptable alternative to a cutaway system? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Icon134 0 #36 August 25, 2010 Quote So you're saying that that doing PT's to break a camera off the helmet is an acceptable alternative to a cutaway system? Wow... I never stated that... nor did I imply anything of the sort... I stated in both of my posts that assuming the camera mount will break is not in any way, shape or form, a sufficient alternative to dedicated helmet cutaway system... such as the cutaway system on an FTP... Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #37 August 25, 2010 The fact that Gopro (and similar cameras) CAN break off a helmet in case of linesnag, is actually a worrying thing. As the 'easy' breaking is a reason I see more and more people (ad) Duc-tape and big metal bolts to the cameras to make sure they stay on and dont get lost due to breaking. Effectivly canceling the one 'safety feature' the camera has..JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Superfletch 1 #38 August 25, 2010 Quote Effectivly canceling the one 'safety feature' the camera has.. Personally... I don't see it as a 'safety feature'. I see it as a feature that places the whole thing in the Piece of Shit category. Gary "Superfletch" Fletcher D-26145; USPA Coach, IAD/I, AFF/I Videographer/Photographer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Decodiver 0 #39 August 25, 2010 At my DZ if you don't have a cutaway and want to jump a Go-Pro or any other camera/video you can't. Simple. Cheers, Coops. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OG-Tahiti 0 #40 August 25, 2010 QuoteOK, I'm confused... he was talking to me... and I'm definitely not hallux... despite the fact that the conversation has gotten off on a tangent from your question asking if the camera will break off... and implying that it is a sufficient alternative to a helmet cutaway system... I was merely reinforcing that it isn't an alternative... and hallux was agreeing with me... My bad I took hallux for rhys and figured he forgot to relog before replying to himself. Looks like rhys other account got deleted and that added to my confusion :P My bad sorry hallux!!! And as you said I asked if it could be an alternative and got some sound replies from you guys and learned from it :)"Common sense is not so common" - Voltaire Dudeist Skydiver #9 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #41 August 25, 2010 Quote: Quote Effectivly canceling the one 'safety feature' the camera has.. Personally... I don't see it as a 'safety feature'. I see it as a feature that places the whole thing in the Piece of Shit category. Tongue Haha, while I agree that the mounts are less than perfect, I would not call them a piece of shit either. they are releatively new, and will be developed further I am sure. The strength of the mount and the quality of the footage are two separate issues. I never have said the mount breaking is a safetly feature, but I was arguing against the point that they are difficult to break, a helmet cutaway is the best solution, and even those are not perfect. I know the design has changed on the FTP buckle but when I first started jumping a guy had a FTP and almost lost it a few times due to the buckle coming open during the opening sequence... the buckle was changed but I am sure a few people would have lost thier setups that way, and a falling FTP loaded is more of a hazard than a falling go pro... My point is that the go pros are new, they are good in some respcts and bad in others. They are however more than adequade for commercial skydiving, unless the customer is paying big money for exceptional quality. People that use many$1000's of equipment and programs to produce a $70 dvd are just ripping themselves off. If the customer pays $hundreds for a DVD it is a differnt story. there is a thing called balance, and these small cameras a re balancing out the industry quite perfectly, but some are reluctant to admit that. Their egos take over from their common sence. But one thing is for sure, they are becoming extemely popular, they are not going away, they will increase in quality and lower in price. I suggest that everyone that mounts a go pro to thier helmet uses a cutaway system and not the shit cheap ones that have a washer, split pin and spring, those are not good. I made my own, but you can buy them for not mauch at all... I still have not worked our how i am going to mount a go pro to a helmet, I still use a CX100 for outside, but I think i will go for a contour s they can b side mounted and releatively flush."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hallux 0 #42 August 25, 2010 haha no prob OG. and DSE...do you really think i was talking about PT's to break a camera off.....thats funny. I meant pt's to get familiar with your helmets cutaway system. I mean if you are wearing it and might have to use it someday then dont you think you should have good muscle memory to find it? And yes I am somewhat being a smartass. Personally I have C4 rigged to my arms, legs and neck. That way if any of THE BIGGEST SNAG HAZZARDS become entangled i can cut them away. Also I staple the leg of student jumpsuits to their butts so that no tandem passenger legs can get in the way of my drogue. And yes i do enjoy arguing with you. Im not even sure what we are arguing about anymore, nor do I care. It is a good way to keep you talking and active in here though, which is entertaining for me. Also i enjoy your snobbish views and oversaturated opinion on really simple issues. Comical at times...Basically your experience and relationship with the camera/grip/tech world has skewed your ability to see things from the "normal" consumers view. Therefore this VASST experience has rendered most of your advice useless to the everyday skydiving videographer. When we need to put 25lbs of crap on a FTP and shoot a major motion picture then your advice will surely be helpful. The reality is that the normal consumer would be totally happy with GoPro quality footage. I know you have a wealth of tech knowledge but sometimes the simpler the better. Now lets talk snag hazzards. I dont think someone should be allowed to jump a helmet at all until 100 jumps because the helmet itself is a snag hazzard. And having to keep up with it and remember to buckle it is a distraction. At 150 jumps someone can add camera mount to the helmet...no camera just the mount. FOr they are not nearly ready for the risk of entaglement that a camera poses, nor the immense distraction and stress. Now with 50 more jumps they are certainly qualified to handle the camera. but only one because we dont want to get carried away. I say at 300 jumps now two cameras can be added because now they are totally able to predict snag hazzards and handle the situation like PRO's. They are also totally undistracted by it now. YOu know because they have 300 jumps and thats what matters, not the fact that it is something new for them. As far as that little 3M death trap of a GoPro....well it should be totally banned from this sport for its inmeasurable risk and incompatibility with HMA, spectra, and all modern line types. And worst of all we wouldnt want the FTP to get a complex or self esteem issues over its "small package". what are your views on the appropriate time to start jumping cameras? what makes someone mentally ready for it? And dont try to confuse and dazzle us with a sideshow of tech talk you sneaky spotted eagle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #43 August 25, 2010 QuoteTheir egos take over from their common sence. Quote I still use a CX100 for outside, Since a huge number of vidiots (most that I know) are using CX series camcorders, I'm having a hard time reconciling these statements, especially based on past posts. *** Audio on a GoPro and the Contour is horrible. People pay for videos in which they can hear themselves speak, shriek, and laugh. Audio is 70% of the picture experience. Picture quality of a GP or Contour compared to a CX is not nearly as good. Amount of time to transfer, decode, edit, encode AVC is significantly more lengthy than MPEG2 from a CX series camera. Form factor isn't significantly different. No preview No playback No zoom Relatively close in price ON snaps on, the other requires a mount that will range from a .50 thumbscrew to a 100.00 plate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jonntis 0 #44 August 26, 2010 Rhys, care to share your cutaway solution? I still use the shitty ones you mention... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RedBallz 0 #45 August 26, 2010 This was an interesting read. Being a noob(41 jumps as of today), I thought I would throw in my two cents on this... I currently have one of the new GoPro HD's that I use on my motorcycle routinely. I use it on the track and I use it on the street. For shooting simple videos for myself and friends, it works great. I certainly wouldn't try to seriously pawn off the vid it shoots to somebody for $70. I have yet to attach to my lid and jump with it. I am very hesitant to do this as all of the talk about the negatives of doing this that I've heard from the day I got my A license. If mounted properly, I have a hard time imagining the risks it poses in regards to it being a snag hazard. I would think that for it to get snagged, something else would have had to happen to cause it (like deploying on your back). Now, as far as it being a distraction, I can fully understand that. While 200 jumps may just be an arbitrary number, it is a good suggestion. I plan on waiting till I am at well over a hundred before mounting mine. One thing that I haven't heard being mentioned is to do some solo jumps after mounting it and getting used to having it there while not having another jumper with you as an additional distraction. I would think that this would be a good idea.Not one shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #46 August 26, 2010 Quote While 200 jumps may just be an arbitrary number, it is a good suggestion. I plan on waiting till I am at well over a hundred before mounting mine. How well over 100? "I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #47 August 26, 2010 Quote Rhys, care to share your cutaway solution? I still use the shitty ones you mention... I developed mine with some parts from our riggers 'box of tricks', I made the little riser section and put thegrommet in. it is similar to the cookie composites system but in reverse. I used an old piece of cutaway cable that alredy had a swage on it and the yellow handle is from strong enterprises and it is an aftermarket flexi pin attachment for a drogue bridle, it was just lying around, I was going to make a handle but that was just there. In France it is mandatory to have a cutaway on all camera helmets and I made it when we went there for a comp, even though I think the liklihood of using it is quite minimal, I have heard of enough incidents that makes me feel I should always have one now. Anythong can happen to anyone, they are a bit like a hook knife, a toy you hope you never have to use. There is more than one way to skin a cat, but the spring and washer setup has a real chance of jamming up with a load on if you ask me."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #48 August 26, 2010 Quote While 200 jumps may just be an arbitrary number, it is a good suggestion. I plan on waiting till I am at well over a hundred before mounting mine. One thing that I haven't heard being mentioned is to do some solo jumps after mounting it and getting used to having it there while not having another jumper with you as an additional distraction. I would think that this would be a good idea. When I was learning we were allowed to jump a camera helmet at 100 jumps ( in New Zealand), we had to jump with it empty (no camera) for about 3 or 4 jumps to get used to the extra drag. and then we were into it. Cameras were big then, I had a sony trv18e (looks like a toaster)top mounted and a pentax SLR mounted upside down on the fore head (heller badass). I am not sure if that is the best way but that is how we did it, but our cameras were ' UGE" I'm sure you will be flamed for suggesting (well over) 100 jumps is adequate by others here, in many places the rules are more strict including (many places in) america. Some are ready at 100 jumps and some are not, we were all doing our first 100 jumps in a 3-4 month period compressed into about 5 a day in good weather focusing on a position of a cmera guy from before our very first jump. It really also comes down to currency too, most people ar not that current at or around 100 jumps! It is not so much the camera, its size or how good quality, it is about how much of a distraction the filming is having on your skydiving skills and your ability to skydive safely. For instance you may get flusterd making sure you are recording and foget to check your pin etc. etc. There are many scenarios. Make sure you have at the authorisaton from you S & TA and do it step by step many 2 ways. Once you get to 3 way or more with you filming and the others playing, the likihood of collisions become much much more. Keep it simple focus on your skydiving skills and safety."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #49 August 26, 2010 Quotehaha no prob OG. and DSE...do you really think i was talking about PT's to break a camera off.....thats funny. I meant pt's to get familiar with your helmets cutaway system. I mean if you are wearing it and might have to use it someday then dont you think you should have good muscle memory to find it? And yes I am somewhat being a smartass. Personally I have C4 rigged to my arms, legs and neck. That way if any of THE BIGGEST SNAG HAZZARDS become entangled i can cut them away. Also I staple the leg of student jumpsuits to their butts so that no tandem passenger legs can get in the way of my drogue. And yes i do enjoy arguing with you. Im not even sure what we are arguing about anymore, nor do I care. It is a good way to keep you talking and active in here though, which is entertaining for me. Also i enjoy your snobbish views and oversaturated opinion on really simple issues. Comical at times...Basically your experience and relationship with the camera/grip/tech world has skewed your ability to see things from the "normal" consumers view. Therefore this VASST experience has rendered most of your advice useless to the everyday skydiving videographer. When we need to put 25lbs of crap on a FTP and shoot a major motion picture then your advice will surely be helpful. The reality is that the normal consumer would be totally happy with GoPro quality footage. I know you have a wealth of tech knowledge but sometimes the simpler the better. Now lets talk snag hazzards. I dont think someone should be allowed to jump a helmet at all until 100 jumps because the helmet itself is a snag hazzard. And having to keep up with it and remember to buckle it is a distraction. At 150 jumps someone can add camera mount to the helmet...no camera just the mount. FOr they are not nearly ready for the risk of entaglement that a camera poses, nor the immense distraction and stress. Now with 50 more jumps they are certainly qualified to handle the camera. but only one because we dont want to get carried away. I say at 300 jumps now two cameras can be added because now they are totally able to predict snag hazzards and handle the situation like PRO's. They are also totally undistracted by it now. YOu know because they have 300 jumps and thats what matters, not the fact that it is something new for them. As far as that little 3M death trap of a GoPro....well it should be totally banned from this sport for its inmeasurable risk and incompatibility with HMA, spectra, and all modern line types. And worst of all we wouldnt want the FTP to get a complex or self esteem issues over its "small package". what are your views on the appropriate time to start jumping cameras? what makes someone mentally ready for it? And dont try to confuse and dazzle us with a sideshow of tech talk you sneaky spotted eagle. Your one warning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jonntis 0 #50 August 26, 2010 Quote I developed mine with some parts from our riggers 'box of tricks', I made the little riser section and put thegrommet in. it is similar to the cookie composites system but in reverse. I used an old piece of cutaway cable that alredy had a swage on it and the yellow handle is from strong enterprises and it is an aftermarket flexi pin attachment for a drogue bridle, it was just lying around, I was going to make a handle but that was just there. In France it is mandatory to have a cutaway on all camera helmets and I made it when we went there for a comp, even though I think the liklihood of using it is quite minimal, I have heard of enough incidents that makes me feel I should always have one now. Anythong can happen to anyone, they are a bit like a hook knife, a toy you hope you never have to use. There is more than one way to skin a cat, but the spring and washer setup has a real chance of jamming up with a load on if you ask me. Thanks, looks great. I might try to build a copy of it some day. For now I've got boneheads cutaway kit, and from ground testing it seems to work under pretty heavy load. I tried to build a similar myself, but couldn find a spring that was strong enough to be trusted for the task. Sweden has similar rules regarding cutaways. Camera helmet must have one, and it has to be proved to work under load before you jump it with cameras. Good idea IMO. /Jonathan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
