Facebook: Everything you have ever uploaded is ours forever, no matter what you do

[VTmotoMike08 0]

I am posting this in the photography forum instead of the bonfire because I am hoping for serious replies. I would be interested in feedback from DSE or others who have some experience with media copyright issues.

So it seems facebook has a new terms of service agreement that says, essentially, that every photo you have ever uploaded to their site is their property forever, even if you remove it, or delete your facebook account.

Some reading:
http://mashable.com/2009/02/16/facebook-tos-privacy/

http://consumerist.com/5150175/facebooks-new-terms-of-service-we-can-do-anything-we-want-with-your-content-forever

WTF? So if you ever put a photo that you took, of you and your friends jumping (or anything really), it would then be illegal for you to do basically anything else with it. If I understand this correctly, you could not even give it away to your friends because it is now facebook's property. Forget sending it in to parachutist magazine, or even using it in something like a DZ newsletter or a Christmas card.

Facebook's response: http://blog.facebook.com/blog.php?post=54434097130
My summary: "You can trust us."

Almost everyone I know who is a camera flyer has posted some of their stuff on facebook. Its a great way to share photos and videos with your jumping buddies. But now it seems that if you do this, you no longer own your work. I'm a beginner camera flyer and I have a few of my videos on there too.

I think its BS that they can still own the rights to the content even after you remove it from the site/ and or delete your account. Is this even legal? Anyone gonna stop posting their stuff on facebook?

Comments?

[DSE 3]

Sort of. Facebook doesn't take exclusive copyright, but they do reserve the rights they reserve to protect themselves as a co-owner of your copyrights. In other words, you upload, you still own. But now so do they.
And they aren't required to notify you of their new TOS. If you use the site, you're expected to be aware.

This is a subject of great discussion because there is a question of uploaded vs embedded content happening in one of the legal forums I frequent.
Facebook does this to protect themselves, and it makes sense. But it does screw you over.
I'm in a position where a skydiver has appropriated several photos from my pages, put them on theirs without giving credit, and even had the audacity to tag themselves in my photograph without me being tagged nor credited.
Expect more of this.
As people ignore more and more copyright based on ignorance, apathy, or because they understand the rules and act without ethic, this will become more and more of a problem. If enough skydivers get their panties in a wad over it, maybe they'll quit posting to Facebook. I have, but it doesn't help me recover my photos being used. Google already got fried over this one...now it's being floated again. It'll be interesting to see if it flies.
We already know Facebook and MySpace will share photographs with the media if they deem it 'appropriate' to do so. They'll allow the media to quote pages that aren't generally publically accessible, too. Recently, I couldn't view a deceased person's Facebook page, but the media could?
caveat utilitor, fide nominem

Post em' here. Dropzone.com doesn't claim ownership of your stuff.

[markovwgti 0]

I will just deny uploading it...someone logged into my account and uploaded pictures i took...it was never me that uploaded it...they cna never prove it!

Fucken pricks

[jtval 0]

By using your account,hacked or not, you are giving them permission.

If I can tkae this moment to correct DSE on something.....



....I would. But he's pretty much got the Copyright stuff nailed down.

My photos

My Videos

[DSE 3]

the "hacked account" idea is an interesting argument...I wonder how that might play. We know that Facebook has already dealt with hacked accounts, faked deaths, etc. I wonder how they'd manage a claim of "my account was hacked" or better still "My account was falsely created by someone else?" Facebook can't put anything back in the box, of course...Look at the poor woman that freaked out in HongKong last week. She's furious that she's a YouTube sensation, but no one can put that video "back" even though her rights probably were violated.

**"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice, pull down your pants and slide on the ice" and from here on out, start every conversation with "You do not have permission to record and distribute this" and get a tattoo on your forehead that says "Copyrighted face"



**Apologies to Sydney Friedman

[VTmotoMike08 0]

So could facebook, in theory, do this (legally)?-

Facebook has at least partial rights to everyone's photos. They can essentially resell them for profit if they feel like it. So they put together a massive directory of every category of image that they have and sell the package to advertising companies and make huge bank off it. Want a photo of skydiving? Sure, we can sell you that! How about kids playing soccer? Of course. Photos of a tropical resort to use in your vacation advertisement? Got it.

If they could legally sell other people's work for profit, then I will probably pull all my skydiving photos (taken by me) off of facebook (although they would still own it) and never upload new ones. That would suck.

[BMFin 0]

Never posted any real photos to facebook.

Not that I would be really scared of them using my pics in anyway, but because it packs the photos with poor algorithms which will make the pics look bad.

I think it the terms of use are there merely to protect facebook from copyright indictments, not that they would actually want to use your photos commercially. Infact I think if they ever did such a thing it would raise a LOT of noise and would tremendously effect their business..

[Laszloimage 0]

Thank you for the info Mike!
I've been asked latley a lot "can I get the digital file too so I can put it up on my Facebook?" I always responded to them they can get the watermarked ones from my website ( http://www.laszloimage.com/ ). Now I have another reason to be careful even with a low res. files. I have a bunch of scanned images circling around on Facebook too.
-Laszlo-

[DSE 3]

They'd have a *really, really* hard time profiting from their sale of your work. They can make one argument that if you pull your stuff from Facebook that they're not responsible for your friends keeping copies. That's a legit argument. If it's a news story, parody, educational purpose...there is an argument they could make if they "let" your work outside their world too. But profit...
I'd love to see that legal test. I have no worries on *that* front.
But let's say that I put up a large format, non-watermarked copy of Scotty Burn's famous shuttle shot that has a handsome hunk of helmet-less skydiver in it. Facebook decides it's a cool shot and they want to use it as a "face" of Facebook for marketing.
I'm screwed, and Scotty's shot just became worth less. THAT is where the damage lies. non-controlled distribution of your work. One of your friends gets a copy of your work from Facebook and gives it to a magazine.
A-you let your "friend" access it.
B-Facebook has zero responsibility, although they share in the copyright.
C-you're screwed.

Or...
You have a GREAT shot. One in a billion. Maybe it's of George Bush flipping off Obama under the table.
You put it on Facebook to share with a friend, and then sell it for a bunch of money to the Star magazine. *technically* Facebook could claim some level of ownership and demand a share.
Technically.
But once a camel gets his nose under the tent...

[PharmerPhil 0]

Quote

I'm in a position where a skydiver has appropriated several photos from my pages, put them on theirs without giving credit, and even had the audacity to tag themselves in my photograph without me being tagged nor credited.

Ditto. I have only posted one skydive photo on facebook, but tons of my photos have been ripped from my web site and posted on other's facebook accounts, usually without even photo credit! When I find them I usually put a shaming comment on the photo, and then tag myself somewhere on the image just so it links back to me somehow. But in these cases I certainly didn't authorize either the poster or facebook to use, or distribute my images.

I didn't previously watermark my low-res images on my web site, but now have been forced to. I don't want to be a dick on my own web site and say in bold letters, "HEY, DON"T POST THIS S$%# ON FACEBOOK!" But how else will people even know it's not cool?

[DSE 3]

I don't think it's being a dick to say that, minus perhaps the "!@#&!" part.
It's yours. Only yours.
The other option is to start using Aperture or Lightroom and watermark through the middle of the image. I never thought about putting my own shameful comment on the image though...good idea. I'm heading over to Facebook to stir some shit right now.

[jtval 0]

Quote

the "hacked account" idea is an interesting argument...I wonder how that might play. We know that Facebook has already dealt with hacked accounts, faked deaths, etc. I wonder how they'd manage a claim of "my account was hacked" or better still "My account was falsely created by someone else?"

\


First, I don't know enough about any of the issues you posted. The below is just my speculation.

In the event that we're talking about someone who regrets creating an account and posting their images to it there is no "out" is there?

Let's say I have an account. I just read their (I think it's a)new stance on the ownership.
I dislike it and I claim my account was hacked into and someone posted my images.

Facebook(FB) probable stance:
But you have an account and you say these are your photos, right? Can you prove that you some one was bored enough to find your password, get a hold of your images and put them up on FB for millions fo people to see and possibly copy? There is no way for us to control it so it is your responsibility to maintain your own files. (if this ownership stance is the original one, then...)those were the terms you agreed with when you created your account.


Now, Lets say you claim you never created an account yet somehow your images got on the site.

FB probable stance:
You entered your basic info in order to get an account. you linked it to you Email, which you entered your basic info to create, and opened the email to confirm it is you. Then you put your photos on the site. Excuse me, you put OUR photos on
this site.


I would assume that in a law suit the courts can obtain all the info you entered into each of the accounts. I.E. FB, and your email carrier. I would also assume they can get copies of the mail and messages from each account. It would be pretty hard to claim ignorance of the existance of the account when you have 50 pages of conversation with friends, etc.

My photos

My Videos

[DSE 3]

Does your speculation + my speculation equal a fact? I'd say so

I'm sure you're right, but in my speculation, I was wondering about those things *really* happening.
How hard would it be for me to create a "JT Valente" account on Facebook, steal your photos from your private website,and upload them? If there weren't the social interaction/proof of ownership, but the content was "at large," it would be an interesting case for Facebook. They'd claim co-ownership of stolen property that had been "fenced" by others copying said "stolen" photos.
I'm looking forward to hearing what the FBI has to say at this year's NAB conference, they've got a special panel on internet copyright protections and investigations.

[Cashmanimal 0]

Quote

Hello,

We have removed your video entitled "Hot Air Balloon+Skydiving=Cold, Good times" uploaded at 10:54am January 22nd, 2009. We did this because we learned that your video might include copyrighted material owned by a third party, such as a video clip or background audio.

The Facebook Video application has been disabled from your account due to repeat infringements. Please note that you will not be able to add this application or upload further videos to Facebook. If you believe this notice to be invalid, please contact us at the email address listed below.

I KNOW I am not the only one uploading my skydiving videos to Facebook. I had, at max, 5 skydiving videos on there. They deleted most of them and have removed my rights to upload video ever again... I feel a bit singled out.

I want to email them back and defend myself with the link to the probably ~20 accounts that have double the videos i have with more than double the copyrighted material... I really wanna play he "I didn't do it first or worst" card

It's all fun and until someone loses an eye... then it's just a game to find the eye

[DSE 3]

You're at least the 25th person I know who has received this notice. Seems I have this conversation every day. 5 years ago I told people that in 5-6 years they'd be sued for putting stuff online. Turns out no one *wants* to sue, they just want to stop infringement.
Dunno if I should say "I was wrong (sorta) 5 years ago, or if I should say "be glad they're not suing you."
My next prognostication is that the protection from infringement is a limited time offer, and eventually, labels will begin suing those that are persistent.
Royalty-free. It's the new black.

Oops, I was wrong again, it was six years ago.

[gearless_chris 1]

I'm glad I haven't even been able to upload videos. I'll probably stop putting pictures on my Facebook as well. What program do you need to put watermarks on? I have Photoshop Elements 5.0, and Paint Shop Pro 8. I'm looking through them to see what I can find but would appreciate some help.
I also read in the new policy that even if you delete your stuff they have rights to anything that is archived. I wonder if they did that before they changed the policy.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[bomb420 1]

As far as facebook they reverted their TOS...

Terms of Use Update
Over the past few days, we have received a lot of feedback about the new terms we posted two weeks ago. Because of this response, we have decided to return to our previous Terms of Use while we resolve the issues that people have raised.

If you want to share your thoughts on what should be in the new terms, check out our group Facebook Bill of Rights and Responsibilities.

HYPOXIC

[DSE 3]

Almost verbatim to what happened with Googlevids/talk/docs

[PharmerPhil 0]

Quote

The other option is to start using Aperture or Lightroom and watermark through the middle of the image. I never thought about putting my own shameful comment on the image though...good idea.

That's what I started doing last fall. I hate doing it, and even after doing this, people still rip the images to their facebook or other pages. Funny how FB will take off videos with copyrighted content, but the let people post a completely copyrighted image with a blatant copyright notice (I know they do the former with automatic tools, but still...).

The problem is that most of these people I consider friends. So I just say something like, "Hey, didn't I take that photo?" Done this several times, but I have only received one apology.

[bdazel 0]

Quote

As far as facebook they reverted their TOS...

That doesn't surprise me. Just because facebook adds terms to its agreement saying they have rights your work doesn't give them a legal right. Contracts, especially clicky internet contracts, have been held unenforceable in courts across the country for various reasons. CR law gives authors many exclusive rights in their works, and, I suspect from a legal standpoint that more would be required to transfer those rights than simply changing the terms and agreements page.

[ChangoLanzao 0]

Quote

Quote

The other option is to start using Aperture or Lightroom and watermark through the middle of the image. I never thought about putting my own shameful comment on the image though...good idea.

That's what I started doing
The problem is that most of these people I consider friends. So I just say something like, "Hey, didn't I take that photo?" Done this several times, but I have only received one apology.

I've had the same kind of experience on Facebook. At first it kinda bothered me, but like you said, those are my friends doing it. I always shrink my images down to no greater than 640x480 resolution before uploading to Facebook.

If anyone wants to copy them to their profile or whatever that's fine with me. Images which I might someday sell as stock are always watermarked, but even then, at 640x480 resolution nobody is going to publish them on a magazine cover . If they do, I can always produce the original, high-res, version to prove it's mine.

Many of the images in my Facebook albums contain people/property that would require releases in order to be legally used for commercial purposes, so I'm not too worried about them being copied either. Facebook wouldn't be able to use them for commercial purposes even if they wanted to without having the proper releases, regardless of what their TOS says.

I have a lot of video's in my Facebook profile also. It's great for the tandems too because they can share them with all of their friends. I license all of my videos through [url "http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/us/">Creative Commons Licenses and I use music that is also legal for me to sync and incorporate into the videos through the same Creative Commons license. The credits in my videos clearly state this, so I think this is why Facebook hasn't had any problem with the videos in my account.

For me, today's Facebook reinstatement of the old TOS along with the plain English clarification they made is reassuring.

[ChangoLanzao 0]

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Quote

As far as facebook they reverted their TOS...

That doesn't surprise me. Just because facebook adds terms to its agreement saying they have rights your work doesn't give them a legal right. Contracts, especially clicky internet contracts, have been held unenforceable in courts across the country for various reasons. CR law gives authors many exclusive rights in their works, and, I suspect from a legal standpoint that more would be required to transfer those rights than simply changing the terms and agreements page.

+1







-

[ChangoLanzao 0]

Quote

Quote

Hello,

We have removed your video entitled "Hot Air Balloon+Skydiving=Cold, Good times" uploaded at 10:54am January 22nd, 2009. We did this because we learned that your video might include copyrighted material owned by a third party, such as a video clip or background audio.

The Facebook Video application has been disabled from your account due to repeat infringements. Please note that you will not be able to add this application or upload further videos to Facebook. If you believe this notice to be invalid, please contact us at the email address listed below.

I KNOW I am not the only one uploading my skydiving videos to Facebook. I had, at max, 5 skydiving videos on there. They deleted most of them and have removed my rights to upload video ever again... I feel a bit singled out.

I want to email them back and defend myself with the link to the probably ~20 accounts that have double the videos i have with more than double the copyrighted material... I really wanna play he "I didn't do it first or worst" card

Your best bet is to just start using legally licensed music in your videos from now on. It's not difficult to do and there are lots of ways you can get good music to sync with your video.

[VTmotoMike08 0]

It looks like part 2 of this will continue when facebook releases their new TOS in a couple weeks. Stay tuned...

I really did not know they were gonna send out that notice the day after I started this thread, but it has made for some good learning, thanks to all, especially DSE.