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Skydave103

430EX or 580EX

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I just found these on Craigslist, the 430 is $200 and the 580 is $300.
Is the 580 worth the extra $100? If I am just using it for freefall and not much else is the 430 sufficient?
Been going back and forth about which one to get for awhile.
LifeshouldNOTbeajourneytothegravewithawellpreservedbody,buttskidinsideways,cigarinone hand,martiniintheother,bodythoroughlyused upandscreaming:"WOO HOO!! What a ride!!!"

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Go with the 580 EX II. It cycles faster 20% then the original 580 EX.

That didn't seem to be one of his choices... :P but for only 70 more then the 580EX it might not be a bad Idea... and that's new from amazon... http://www.amazon.com/Canon-Speedlite-580EX-Digital-Cameras/dp/B000NP3DJW/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1224681815&sr=8-1
Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

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Is it just because is a newer little bit better flash (ie bright shinny) that you would go with the 580 I or II compared to the 430?
Also looking at size the 580 is 25% bigger (got that from a website) and 3oz heavier.
If the 580 didn't exist would the 430 be enough flash?
LifeshouldNOTbeajourneytothegravewithawellpreservedbody,buttskidinsideways,cigarinone hand,martiniintheother,bodythoroughlyused upandscreaming:"WOO HOO!! What a ride!!!"

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The 580 I and II has a much higher guide number, it puts out more light at a given power setting then the 430 does. That means you have a few options to get the same light in the photos with a 430 that you could with a 580, you can either crank the power up (that increases the cycle times) or move in closer and mess with the framing and many other factors. Cranking the power up may seem the easiest but if it increases the cycle times from 3 seconds to 4.5 seconds that means you go from 20 photos to 13 photos with the flash giving the correct fill light.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

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Is it just because is a newer little bit better flash (ie bright shinny) that you would go with the 580 I or II compared to the 430?
Also looking at size the 580 is 25% bigger (got that from a website) and 3oz heavier.
If the 580 didn't exist would the 430 be enough flash?

The two major differences between the 580EX and 580EX II are a faster recycle time and weather sealing on the II...

There is also a 430EX II which claims to have a 20% faster recycle time (presumabablity then the 430EX I)

I haven't done much jumping with a flash yet (I have one jump from a helocopter with a flash) but beyond weight I would think that recycle time is a very important factor with flash photography.

but during the day the flash is likely to be used as fill at relatively low power and thus recycle time may bot be as critical... I may have to try some settings out to see what I get shooting in manual with the flash as fill...

there are probably others here that already know this sort of thing but I'm still learning... :$
Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

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The 580 I and II has a much higher guide number, it puts out more light at a given power setting then the 430 does. That means you have a few options to get the same light in the photos with a 430 that you could with a 580, you can either crank the power up (that increases the cycle times) or move in closer and mess with the framing and many other factors. Cranking the power up may seem the easiest but if it increases the cycle times from 3 seconds to 4.5 seconds that means you go from 20 photos to 13 photos with the flash giving the correct fill light.



As far as I have understood a high guide number doesnt mean it will recycle any faster than a flash with lower guide number.

The only thing the guide number tells is that the flash model with the higher guide number is capable of producing more light with the maximum setup.

So basically I see it as the 430 and the 580 will recycle both as fast.

How often do you guys use 1/1 manual setup with the 580 ? Only if you need to use FULL power then the guide number is beneficial.. But remember the recycle time with 1/1 power is approximately 6 seconds according to canons website. Then youll need a batterypack for more photos then just a few..

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This is all just made up numbers (and units of time) but lets say you need fill light on a sunset jump. You look at the power settings on the 580 and decide to go with 1/4 and based on experience you know it needs 70 flops of time (50 for the 580EXII). To get the same amount of light at the same distance on the 430 you know it needs 1/2 power and this takes 120 flops to cycle at this setting. The 580 can cycle much faster for the same power output, the 580EX II is even faster. ;)

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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How about a speed cycler? I use one every jump. with a 580 2



This is going WAYYYY over my head. What is a speed cycler? What is a flop?

So way you all are saying is that if I want to shoot a fair amount of still during freefall I will need the 580 and run it at 1/2 to 1/4 light output to shorten up the cycle times?

I could do that with the 430 but I wont get as many flash filled photos, correct?

Will I still be able to take photos even if the flash isnt ready? or will the camera "wait" on the flash before it will take another pic?

thanks,
dave
LifeshouldNOTbeajourneytothegravewithawellpreservedbody,buttskidinsideways,cigarinone hand,martiniintheother,bodythoroughlyused upandscreaming:"WOO HOO!! What a ride!!!"

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How about a speed cycler? I use one every jump. with a 580 2



This is going WAYYYY over my head. What is a speed cycler?
It's essentially an external battery pack that improves the recycle time of the flash.

B&H isn't taking orders for about 5.5 hrs from the time I posted this... but here's a canon battery pack that can be used with canon flashes... of course it's more weight to add to your head... :P:D

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/498738-REG/Canon_1947B001_Compact_Battery_Pack_CP_E4.html
Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

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Depends on weather your using full manual still camera settings or shutter priority etc etc etc... Full manual will get you the best results .On tandems i generally shoot 1/8 power fill flash depending on how close you fly ,and i have fill on every shot . Around 100 or more in free fall.


A friend will bail you out of jail , a REAL friend will be sitting next to you in the cell slapping your hand saying "DUDE THAT WAS AWSUM " ................

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I don't put it on my head .I have it in my suit pocket wire has a rca adaptor in case i have to cut my helmet away.

I think I remember reading that you did that... (or someone else)... here at dz.com.

you've posted pictures of your setup before right?
Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

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You can turn down the power on the higher rated flash and get faster recycle times for the same amount of light output.



Why do you think so ?

I think the same amount of light output basically needs the same amount of energy. The fact that the 580 has a larger guide number doesnt mean it is any more efficient in using X amount of energy. It only means its more powerfull, not that its more efficient.

So therefore according to my understanding both 430 and 580 will recycle as fast..

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Depends on weather your using full manual still camera settings or shutter priority etc etc etc... Full manual will get you the best results .On tandems i generally shoot 1/8 power fill flash depending on how close you fly ,and i have fill on every shot . Around 100 or more in free fall.



I was just planning on using it in low light situations (cloudy, high noon, sunset, and dark skinned students)

So even with 1/8 power the flash is enough? I fly just a few feet away, 5 feet is about max. so I dont think I will need much flash.

Dave
LifeshouldNOTbeajourneytothegravewithawellpreservedbody,buttskidinsideways,cigarinone hand,martiniintheother,bodythoroughlyused upandscreaming:"WOO HOO!! What a ride!!!"

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Yes but i didn't show the cycler in them. Here's a couple. The wire to the cycler i wrap around the bungee cord on the wireless mic box.An rca adaptor i soldered together at that point keeps it so i can cut it away if necessary . Cycler goes inside my suit in a pocket i sewed together.


A friend will bail you out of jail , a REAL friend will be sitting next to you in the cell slapping your hand saying "DUDE THAT WAS AWSUM " ................

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I just found these on Craigslist, the 430 is $200 and the 580 is $300.
Is the 580 worth the extra $100? If I am just using it for freefall and not much else is the 430 sufficient?
Been going back and forth about which one to get for awhile.



They want $300 for the 580? You can get a brand new 580EX II from B&H with a one year warranty for only $70 more ($370 with instant rebate).


http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/486706-USA/Canon_1946B002_580EX_II_Flash.html

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You can turn down the power on the higher rated flash and get faster recycle times for the same amount of light output.



Why do you think so ?



I think the same amount of light output basically needs the same amount of energy. The fact that the 580 has a larger guide number doesnt mean it is any more efficient in using X amount of energy. It only means its more powerfull, not that its more efficient.

So therefore according to my understanding both 430 and 580 will recycle as fast..



Your understanding is incorrect. The 580ex IS more efficient than the 430 - that is why the guide number is higher - it outputs more light.

GN / distance = aperture
GN / aperture = distance

So, let's say you use a distance of 10m.

43 / 10 = f/4.3

58 / 10 = f/5.8

That's a 2/3 stop advantage to the 580, which lets you reduce power on the 580 compared to the 430 and get the same exposure.

Remember - the GN is figured for a full power flash, and a flash is powered by a capacitor. If the capacitor is not fully discharged in a flash, then it does not have to be fully recharged for the next flash, hence a faster recycle time.

Prove it to yourself - set your flash to manual and full power and trip off a couple of strobes with the test button. Then, set it to half power and trip off a couple strobes - you will find that the flash recycles much faster at a lower power setting.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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Your understanding is incorrect. The 580ex IS more efficient than the 430 - that is why the guide number is higher - it outputs more light.



Your logic is incorrect. The guide number is higher because the flash is more powerfull. But using this power means also higher recycle times.

Look at the Canon specs:

430 EX II : Approx. 0.1 to 3.7 seconds

580 EX II: Approx. 0.1 to 6 seconds


Looking at those specs it actually looks like the 580 slower in recycling !!! (Both at 1/1 power) But this is not the case either.

Look at the picture I drew. ( As an attachement.)
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GN / distance = aperture
GN / aperture = distance

So, let's say you use a distance of 10m.

43 / 10 = f/4.3

58 / 10 = f/5.8

That's a 2/3 stop advantage to the 580, which lets you reduce power on the 580 compared to the 430 and get the same exposure.



No it doesnt let you reduce power. Why would it let you reduce power ? The both need the same amount of power to emit the same amount of light.


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Prove it to yourself - set your flash to manual and full power and trip off a couple of strobes with the test button. Then, set it to half power and trip off a couple strobes - you will find that the flash recycles much faster at a lower power setting.



Ofcourse it recycles faster at a lower power setting :D Why wouldn´t it ?

In the picture you can see the basic idea why they both basically recycle as fast. U see that 1/2 power in the 580 is more than 1/2 power in the 430 and therefore the 430 will recycle faster with 1/2 power than the 580. (it needs less energy to charge to 1/2 state)

However, should you test them at the same power you would need to know which settings are equal. (I dont know that and I doubt you know that either) But I am pretty sure they would both recylce as fast if you could find those settings which are equally powerfull.

So I say it once more: The guide number does not tell you anything about the recycle times one way or another. The guide number only tells you how powerfull the flash is, not how efficient it is in using energy.


EDIT: added the picture
(the picture is just a raw scetch I drew by the eye. It will anyhow make the point..

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