sundevil777 93 #1 June 14, 2003 A product called "dual lock" by 3M seems like a great alternative to velcro. It looks like little mushroom cap shapes (same on both sides) that engage with each other when pressed together with an audible and tactile 'snap'. I tried rubbing a line against it, but it doesn't pull at the fibers of microline at all. None of the damage like the hooks of velcro cause. It is available in flexible versions that can be sewed. Any of you manufacturer-associated riggers know if this stuff has been considered? I'm going to use it to replace my Velcro toggle keepers. A lot cheaper than buying new toggles and modifying/buying new risers. I can see a lot of other possible applications. Check out the attached pic for a blurry image from their automotive application guide, and the link. (edit-search of previous posts turned up nothing) Dual lock velcro alternativePeople are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
newshooter12 0 #2 June 14, 2003 I'm not sure it's exactly the same stuff, but one of the engineers at work has a fasination with a similar product. So it's all over the place. Holding things in place in our live trucks, keeping wireless transmitters attached to our cameras, etc... It does hold well, but it's a royal B*&#@H to get to stick. Practically a wrestling match to get the sides locked together. At least the variety that I've seen at work I would not want anywhere on a rig I was jumping. matt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #3 June 14, 2003 QuoteIt does hold well, but it's a royal B*&#@H to get to stick. Practically a wrestling match to get the sides locked together. It depends on how much you use (you don't need much compared to velcro). The 1 inch square piece I have takes maybe 5 pounds to 'mate' if you press on it evenly with a backing board or something, but much less force if you press it together with your finger a small area at a time. This stuff is used to hold up head liners in cars and many other applications. If it was hard to apply, it wouldn't be used in car factories.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #4 June 14, 2003 My question is why on a rig, since what we have now works so well (tuck tabs). Although, it is going past the 'why' question that drives innovation. Whats the rating for this stuff in reference to force needed to release it?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #5 June 14, 2003 QuoteMy question is why on a rig, since what we have now works so well (tuck tabs). I'm not suggesting that it should replace tuck tabs for riser covers, or even that it is better than the tuck tab style toggle keepers, but velcro is still used for cutaway pillows and reserve handles. How often have you confirmed that your pillow was well seated on the velcro? With this stuff you just know it is seated -no wondering if the velcro has partially released. I also could see it for other purposes, I always did like my old 'split on both sides - lay flat' deployment bag, but the velcro is no good unless you have dacron lines (I know some may not agree on the advantage of split bags). Even if just a better maintenance alternative than replacing old velcro with new velcro, I think it is very interesting.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #6 June 14, 2003 QuoteI know some may not agree on the advantage of split bags You're right, I don't agree with them. Personally I actually find them harder to put canopies in! I'm the kind of person who says that you don't need "tricks" to pack with, people just need to learn how to pack right.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #7 June 14, 2003 QuoteWhats the rating for this stuff in reference to force needed to release it? The stuff I have requires 19 pounds/sq. inch to engage, 22 to disengage (tensile-in the direction of mating). There are a lot of different densities-'stems'/sq. inch, the stuff I have is at the low-force end of the spectrum. It varies all the way up to 63/88 engage/disengage force. If I read the application guide correctly, it can even be used as a replacement for the 'hook' side of velcro only, mating with the normal 'loop' side of velcro. The forces then are less than 1 pound/sq. inch to engage, and 37 to disengage (at least for the loop they tested). You still get the advantage of no damage to microline.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeemax 0 #8 June 14, 2003 QuoteHow often have you confirmed that your pillow was well seated on the velcro? before i put my rig on. When i have it on. Before i get in the plane. In the plane. Just before i get out. it's possible to say i'm cautious... LOL !Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aneblett 0 #9 June 14, 2003 I hate velcro myself because its ability to pick at fabrics that it wasn't meant to...but I am still not sure about this stuff. Guess I would have to see it in action. Make sure you don't grab the wrong kind and have toggles that require too much pull force to remove S.E.X. party #2 ..It is far worse to live with fear, than to die confronting it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Clownburner 0 #10 June 14, 2003 I've used quite a bit of this stuff in other (non-skydiving) applications. It works really well, but it is a LOT stronger than velcro in holding strength. I'm not sure I'd want it on something that had to come apart fast like a reserve handle. It's also pretty hard to pull apart laterally - in a direction other than straight off, it holds on for dear life. The downside of using it with regular 'loop' velcro is it seems to wear out the loop side really fast. But for some applications - in small amounts - it might work well.7CP#1 | BTR#2 | Payaso en fuego Rodriguez "I want hot chicks in my boobies!"- McBeth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andy2 0 #11 June 14, 2003 [QUOTE]it can even be used as a replacement for the 'hook' side of velcro only, mating with the normal 'loop' side of velcro.[/QUOTE] You sure about that? That doesnt sound right for some reason... --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KellyF 16 #12 June 16, 2003 With the little bit that I have played with this stuff, I'm not sold on it because: 1) If you don't peel it apart, it is VERY hard to disengage. 2) Some people already have a problem with peeling their handles before they pull them. 3) The sample that I played with was very stiff, flexability is generally a good thing. I have seen some more "traditional" hook velcro on mountain climbing harnesses that won't snag microline and softer fabrics, but has a pretty standard grip on the loop side of velcro. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find a vendor that sells it. And really, how much velcro is there on a modern rig anyway?VSE on Facebook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #13 June 17, 2003 Lots of freefall photographers use 3M's mushroom style fasteners to prevent their cameras from shifting on their helmets. They use it as a back up to screws, straps, etc. I would not use mushroom fasteners on harnesses as it is too stiff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #14 June 17, 2003 Thanks everyone for your input. I now agree that the strength in 'shear' is too great for cutaway pillows, etc. However I think I will try it, it will only take a little, for my toggles and old style velcro slider 'collapsible' wrap-around strap (of course the newer pull-string style is better). The velcro on this strap even snags the fabric on my slider. I'll be careful, thanks again.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackR 0 #15 June 26, 2003 I'm not excited about the DualLock from 3M on rigs either. It looks like it has too much holding force. I did go to the 3M website to learn more about it. They have some great information and a lot of specs on it. While I was there I noticed that they have another product called Scotchmate. This looks more like the lighter, more traditional Velcro that KellyF may have seen. There were some pictures of appilcations of Scotchmate. It looks like the material I'm using in my fabric cubicle at work. I'm planning on getting some samples from 3M to play around with. If the tesile strengths are enough while allowing easy separation and less damage to other parts of the rig, I suspect we'll be seeing this start replacing Velcro in some places on rigs. I doubt we'll se the end of Velcro. After all, look around for the snaps. A few rigs still have those.Packin' Jack 42nd Lost Prairie: The Ultimate Answer to Life, the Universe, and Skydiving 25 Jul - 3 Aug 2009 2007 photos: http://www.skydive.com/prairie/pages/prairie.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
