reserve pack job question?

[skymedic 0]

for the riggers out there and anyone else for that matter.

I got my wings W18 repacked about two months ago. my pop top is now slanted to one side with me being able to fit my fingers(all 4 at once) under the pop top. there is PC material coming out. I doubt that the thing will deploy yada yada...but am mored worried about material wear on the PC and also a snag hazard on the pop top. by the way I take very good care of my rig keep it protected at all times and have not biffed in since the last pack job. also my previous three pack jobs on my wings all done my sunrise riggine did not have this issue. I have a DashM 218 in the container.

any thoughts on what is the right thing to do? if you were a rigger would you repack it for the person, or is it one of those things that it was down when it left the riggers hands so now it's my issue? any other thoughts?

marc

[ERICCONNELLY 0]

My rigger would reclose this for nada.

Better get it looked at in any case.

[hookitt 0]

If it were my pack job, I'd reclose it or redo it.

It took me a couple wings pack jobs to get the technique.

Your rigger will most likely be cool about it and fix it for you. If I was your rigger, I'd have wondered why you waited so long to show me.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[bwilling 0]

I had that happen with my Dolphin (and it wasn't even as bad as what you described), and another rigger who noticed it told me I should take it back to whoever packed it and have them reclose it. I did, and they did, no charge.

You should have whoever packed it for you reclose it...

"If all you ever do is all you ever did, then all you'll ever get is all you ever got."

[skymedic 0]

I just noticed it after jumping this past weekend....kinda scary considering I was standing on my head for a couple of jumps that weekend too.

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[MrHixxx 0]

I would reclose it for free if it was my packjob. In fact, I would be pleased that you brought it back to me to fix.

-Hixxx

death,as men call him, ends what they call men
-but beauty is more now than dying’s when

[rigging65 0]

Most likely just the base of the res. p/c has shifted slightly to one side. That combined with the compression of the reserve canopy over time makes it more obvious that it's not quite centered. It should be no big deal to get it reclosed.

Incidentally, the flaps compressing the reserve is a major reason why it sometimes appears that a pop-top is floating up on a packjob after a week or so. It's not that the p/c has moved, it's that the pack job has shrunk under the flaps giving it that appearance. Kind of cool pop-top trivia!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[Hooknswoop 19]

I am the rigger that packed Skymedic's Wings.

I pre-stretch the reserve closing loop and replace the loop with a shorter one if after closing the reserve it isn't tight enough. Loops sometimes do stretch, the Cypres manuals says they will stretch no more than 3mm. I thin that number depends on the length of the loop.

Pack jobs settle, especially when going from a low humidity to higher humidity environment. I try and run the humidifier when packing reserves here in CO, which usually has very low humidity.

I have offered to either re-pack it for free, (which would cost him shipping, since he is out of state), or refund the $35.00 I charged him to re-pack it. If a reserve I pack ever has a problem, I will fix it for free, and throw in a benny if I can, such as a custom hook knife pouch, etc.

Hook

[councilman24 36]

Loops stretch and pack jobs compress. I've gotten pretty good at getting them tight enough. But, I used to routinely take a rig that I packed off someones back to open it up and replace the loop. I pride myself on ascetics as well as safety and function. Complain (comment?) to your rigger. I believe he/she should open it up and tighten with out charge. One thing that a lot of people still do is use a ParaGear type kneeling plate. This "bridges across the PC to the sides of the reserve pack on Javelins, Wings, etc and doesn't allow for complete compression of the PC in the center. It does need/have/should be the rigger who originally packed it. Some riggers will open someone else's pack job, tighten the loop, seal it with their seal, and note that on the card (or not note it). Very few of us at the PIA rigger committee meetings will either do this or want others to do it to our pack job.

Terry

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[skymedic 0]

I wasn't necesarily complaining just was wondering what the procedures are on this. Hook has always been an upstanding guy, always. and did a great job on my safire..so much that I now have a brand new canopy to me....I just want to say i really am greatfull to have a good rigger like this. there are some less than desirable ones around here...and hook definately is one of the better ones...

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[jheadley 0]

Quote

One thing that a lot of people still do is use a ParaGear type kneeling plate. This "bridges across the PC to the sides of the reserve pack on Javelins, Wings, etc and doesn't allow for complete compression of the PC in the center.
Terry

I see what you mean by this but what is an alternative method to using the knee plate? I know some people simply don't use the knee plate at all, on any flap or pack job, but I'm worried that would damage the stiffeners.

[mark 104]

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I see what you mean by this but what is an alternative method to using the knee plate? I know some people simply don't use the knee plate at all, on any flap or pack job, but I'm worried that would damage the stiffeners.

My "knee plate" is 6" across. Not much use for kneeling on, but allows good compression when I use a crank. Whatever plate you use needs to be wide enough to span the pilot chute spring coils.

I don't mind when I see other folks cranking without using any sort of plate. I make good money replacing stiffeners and grommets they damage.

Mark

[councilman24 36]

Two options.

Sandy Reid used to sell a combination packing paddle kneeling plate. It look like a normal packing paddle on one end but the other end was in a Y shape. You put the Y around the gromment and put one knee on it. I use it on a javelin laying on the PC or flap with the stem of the Y pointing to the yolk of the rig. Then I kneel at the top and put one knee on the plate. Does span the side. I actually use this plate more than the traditional plate. This could easily be made with a band saw and some aluminum plate. I have some aluminum plate. I'll have to make another one some time.

The other tool I use is a crank device sold that was sold by Allen Silver. It's about 5 inches across with a slot like a normal kneeling plate. But it has sides that support an axle and ratchet system with a pin. Using a socket wrench you can crank the rig closed with the base on the PC or flap. This tool is dangerous because you can tear a rig apart with it. It takes some feel and experience to use. Also this tool was several hundred dollars last I knew. I friend made a funtional copy out of some plate and a wooden frame.

Mark's smaller plate could also be made from plate or cutdown from a larger kneeling plate.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[riggerrob 561]

Try laying a small sand bag on the floor, along the center line of the reserve.
If the sand bag is about the same diameter as your forearm, it will raise the center of the pack job, eliminating a tendency for the kneeling plate to bottom out - on the side flaps - before you fully compress the pilot chute.

[masterrig 1]

When I first started packing Wings, I had that problem. The pilot chute would rise-up on one side. I spoke with the owner of Wings (Henri) and he told me to get all the material I could into the upper half of the bag... really fill it. After compressing the pilot chute and temp pinning it, I'll reach in with my thumbs and really work the material away from the center toward the sides to maintain a good 'hollow' for the pilot chute. Loop length is really important with Wings and as mentioned, the loops stretch. Even after pre-stretching. I've seen the same thing you mentioned after the owner made two or three jumps and I tell them I would like to re-close their reserve (I had packed it) and that I didn't like the looks of it. Like all the other riggers here, I don't charge for that. Like other riggers, I want the owner's rig to be correct and look good. If, another rigger packed it, I just calmly, tell the owner to take it back to their rigger.


Chuck

[riggerrob 561]

Similarly, you could adopt a trick from the Talon 2 manual.
Insert a packing paddle - into the upper left corner of the reserve container - and twist it counter-clockwise. This will shift the loose fabric - on the top of the freebag - away from the pilot chute and closer to the outboard edges. Similarly, perform the same step on the right side of the reserve, only twisting clockwise.
I usually perform this "twisty" step" when the side flaps are 3/4 closed on a Talon 2.
With Javelins, I perform this step after the pilot chute is compressed, because then the spring helps prevent loose fabric from sneaking back towards the center line.

CAUTION: while this technique works great on freebags made of Oxford cloth or para-pack, it is too easy to tear a free bag made of F-111 fabric.
IOW be gentle.

[masterrigger1 2]

***
Some riggers will open someone else's pack job, tighten the loop, seal it with their seal, and note that on the card (or not note it). Very few of us at the PIA rigger committee meetings will either do this or want others to do it to our pack job.

Quote

Kinda off topic, but since you went there....

Putting your seal on someone else's pack job would not be legal.
The rigger that aired, inspected, and repacked the canopy, sealed the container to prevent tampering.

If the "now or new" rigger opens the pack job and simply reseals it. that would void the previous rigger's pack job.

....and if the new rigger stated that he aired, inspected and repacked the rig (when he actually did not) that would be making false statements which again is not legal.

The bottom line is new rigger-new pack job!

Cheers,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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[councilman24 36]

Didn't say it was legal MEL.

But you know as well as I do that some riggers do it.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[masterrigger1 2]

***
Didn't say it was legal MEL.

But you know as well as I do that some riggers do it.

Quote

I knew that you had the facts straight.

I was worried about the ones that don't; so I threw that out there for them.


Cheers,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[masterrig 1]

I appreciate that, Rob! I savvy not using the paddle on F-111! I had a 'trainee' one time, put a nice little 3-cornered tear in a pilot chute on a Javelin. Pilot chute material had crept out from under the cap and before I could stop him... rrrriiipp!. I told him (before this incident) to never, use a packing paddle to push the material under the cap... "use your fingers!" Also, I use the 'fat' end of my paddles which helps reduce the risk, somewhat.


Chuck

[councilman24 36]

Actually it could be argued that it's not against the law.

The reserve had to be packed within the last 120 days. The rigger had to seal it.

Only by implication does the seal have to remain undisturbed.

A in date rig is opened, tightened, and resealed by a new rigger. The jumper (pilot, etc) is not doing anything illegal because it has been packed within the last 120 days. The original rigger certainly didn't do anything illegal, he sealed it. The rigger who opened it, tightened it, and resealed it? Well if he doesn't lie on the card about what he did, doesn't redate it for a new 120 days, and takes responsibility for the airworthiness at the time of the original pack and the work he did, has he done anything illegal? Maybe if you believe the seal implies a repack. But we've sealed other things over the years that had nothing to do with repacks and recorded other work on packing data cards that wasn't repacks. Hmmm, not sure what he's busted on?

Of course then we have the Reflex and others were the loop can be tightened with out busting the seal. And some riggers won't pack them because of this. The manual used to state IIRC the original rigger should tighten it. Violation of manual?

And I certainly have done this kind of thing to rigs that I have packed.

Most of us don't like it, won't do it, and don't want another rigger to do it to us. But what FAR has been violated or even guideline has been violated.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[masterrigger1 2]

***
Actually it could be argued that it's not against the law.

Quote

You can also argue that the sky is not blue....

The rigger airs, packs, andseals the thing and once someone else opens it , it is now their ball of wax.

The very point of the seal is to point out responsibility as to who packed the parachute and made it eligible to be airworthy for 120 days.

The moment that it is opened up by someone else, that person has now has to make it airworthy again.

The only way that is going to happen is by a repack and a new seal.

The FAR's exsist already for what I have described.

65.133 Seal.
top
Each certificated parachute rigger must have a seal with an identifying mark prescribed by the Administrator, and a seal press. After packing a parachute he shall seal the pack with his seal in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendation for that type of parachute.


The above does not make mention of simply "opening: a container.

It refers to sealing a parachute only after packing it.


You must also follow the manufacturer's instructions which usually state the same thing.

Cheers,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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[riggerrob 561]

A in date rig is opened, tightened, and resealed by a new rigger. The jumper (pilot, etc) is not doing anything illegal because it has been packed within the last 120 days. The original rigger certainly didn't do anything illegal, he sealed it. The rigger who opened it, tightened it, and resealed it? Well if he doesn't lie on the card about what he did, doesn't redate it for a new 120 days, and takes responsibility for the airworthiness at the time of the original pack and the work he did, has he done anything illegal?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I believe that he acted leagally - under American rules.
This raises the question of how much the second rigger trusts the first. By sealing the reserve, he is saying that everything under that seal is airworthy.
I can count on one hand the number of American riggers, whose work I would be willing to sign on top of, and two of them have retired.

Canadian rules are slightly different. CSPA recently stated that only the original rigger can open a reserve - to change Cypres batteries or tighten a loop.
That work does not change the due date for the next inspection.
Any other Canadian rigger is required to stretch out the reserve, do a full inspection, etc.

[pchapman 262]

Quote

CSPA recently stated that only the original rigger can open a reserve - to change Cypres batteries or tighten a loop.

Rob: Do you recall where that came out? I was trying to find the exact wording but can't find the info (in PIMs or Tech Bulletins).

[masterrigger1 2]

***
I believe that he acted leagally - under American rules.
This raises the question of how much the second rigger trusts the first. By sealing the reserve, he is saying that everything under that seal is airworthy.

Quote

Rob,
If you read the FAR. it states that the person seals the parachute after packing it.

There is no other Reg that allows something different.

BS,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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