Peej 0 #1 August 27, 2007 So we had an incident on our DZ the other day where a slightly lazy drogue toss from a 'slightly' head low TI resulted in the drogue getting caught on the TI's foot for perhaps 3 seconds before it cleared and the skydive continued as normal (Exit was a dive out, no flips). The issue from the TI's perspective has been dealt with after reviewing the video and he knows what he did wrong, etc etc. However, my question is kind of inspired by this incident, a conversation that i had with one of the other camera dudes on the DZ and a part of a post that Jimmy Tavino made in another thread the other day: ***"We all know of instances where a video person has untangled a drogue bridle which had snagged on the tandem pair... in one case , I believe wrapping around the TM's neck....*** Now i haven't been around all that long and only have a few hundred tandem videos under my belt but i certainly don't know of any vidiot who has had to do that, in fact i always thought that we operated off of a "don't get involved no matter what" principle. At least that's what i was told by the TI who helped me get into video. I always thought that me interfering could potentially hurt things even more. So what would you do? If things went so wrong that a TI had a drogue wrapped around a neck, leg, foot, arm, passenger, whatever, would you get involved and try and help clear it? I mean to chat to the TI that i jump with a lot and see what his views on it are but i wanted to get yours too. So fire away. Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #2 August 27, 2007 Only if I am 100% positive that a) I can fix it b) the t/m can't, and c) I can do so safely. I'm no AFFI ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #3 August 27, 2007 Quote Only if I am 100% positive that a) I can fix it b) the t/m can't, and c) I can do so safely. I'm no AFFI same here. when shit happens on a tandem, it can go so fast, and always faster... scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #4 August 27, 2007 The only honest answer I can give is "I don't know." There are a lot of things that can go wrong on a tandem and I am an AFFI but I am no tandem master. I have seen some bad stuff happen while shooting video and that was when everyone was doing things as right as they could. In my case, the tandem master has always managed to make things right before pull time. I would have to be in the exact right position at the exact right time and even then I don't know that I would want to get involved.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Peej 0 #5 August 27, 2007 Yeah that's pretty much how i feel. Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Superfletch 1 #6 August 27, 2007 I would try as best I could without compounding the issue... It would all depend on the situation. I KNOW if a tandem had a leg wrapped around a drogue I would definately see if there were something I could do before the deployment time for the tandem was reached. I'm sure my tandem masters would allow me to take a few seconds. However... at 6K I'd be backing off and just watching from that point to see what the TM would do at that point. Gary "Superfletch" Fletcher D-26145; USPA Coach, IAD/I, AFF/I Videographer/Photographer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #7 August 27, 2007 Emergencies and 'what would I do' are always easy to talk about.. But when they happen in real life, you'll see people looking at it happening, but not responding in any way. And other ones jumping into action before they even realise they're doing it, and maybe saving someone life. I dont honestly believe anyone can say 'what Id do in that situation is..' unless you've been there before. 'This is how I hope to respond' is as far as Id go... And even then, skill comes in. A no drogue tandem accelating wil give even the best skydiver a run for his money I think? Luckely never witnessed any of these things. And hope Id be able to help out in case its possible... The only 'almost' emergency I ever witnessed was someone (probably the load before) who tied two floor seatbelts into a loop in a C206, which caught the tandempassenger, probably just before or during climbout (tandempair sitting in the door, belt around the lower part of the passengers leg, TI didnt see it) I was already out on the camera step and the TM was giving the ready, set...shake. So I blocked his exit and pushed them back in. The TM then spotted the problem, and we managed to fix it by disconnecting the two seatbelt. Quite lucky to have spotted that in time. Had this been spotted 2 seconds later, dispite any intentions of helping. I would be freefalling. And they'd be hanging from the plane. Being able to help in an emergency (next to wanting to, and being able to, skillwise and in terms of not 'freezing') is also a large matter of accidently spotting a problem in time, and at the same time, probably aso accidently being in the correct place to respond..JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AS1 0 #8 August 27, 2007 ***"We all know of instances where a video person has untangled a drogue bridle which had snagged on the tandem pair... in one case , I believe wrapping around the TM's neck....*** I don't shoot camera but by coincidence I was putting my first jump video onto DVD this morning and after it I found footage of the neck entanglement. I think it was 1990 (possibly 1991) and happenened in Sibson, UK. The drogue was entangled with the TMs neck on deployment and they went into a spin on their side, the TM blacked out. The CCI was filming camera and after a few attempts flew in and pulled the reserve. The TM woke up under canopy and landed uneventfully. The footage I have comes from Anglia TVs news. I can try to upload it if anyone is really interested. Some superb British understatement in the interviews. (he woke up under canopy feeling "a tad under par...") As I said I can't offer an opinion to the original question but thought this might help the debate. Oh yeah, everone had really bad hair seventeen years ago... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #9 August 27, 2007 This was at our dropzone a few years back: http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=603&string=martijn%20dam ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #10 August 27, 2007 Something to keep in mind is the libality of getting involved. If you take an action and the end result is that the tandem is injuried or dies the students family will be looking at what role you may have had in it and if you were qualified and had been trained on how to deal with the situation. If it turns out that in some way your actions could be deemed as in any way causing or amplifying the injuries at least here in the US you could probally expect to be named in a lawsuit. If a lawyer finds out you have never attended a tandem certification course and were involved in any way in a fatality you can bet your ass they will name you as a defendant and you can kiss your life savings away.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 37 #11 August 27, 2007 Yeah - but to me trying to save a friends life is a million times more important than risking the liability. Its like showing up to the scene of a car accident - I'm not gonna let someone get hurt worse or killed (say the car catching on fire) for fear of liability. If it happens it happens, but liability is the last thing on my mind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #12 August 27, 2007 QuoteIf a lawyer finds out I think a lawsuit should be the last thing on someones mind in something like this.. Quite scary that the whole sue-crazy culture can even lead to such a mindset?JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base935 0 #13 August 27, 2007 I really hate to sound like this, but what are you going to do to help? Fly in with your jedi skills, to a super unstable pair, the tandem who is incredibly unpredictable, and just twist off the line that is attached to a 5 foot drogue at 150+ mph? Without getting your own head snapped off? And that's if your good buddies with the TI and know that he would want the problems complicated by you potentially getting involved. Step back and think about what you are about to get into...Gravity Research Institute Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #14 August 28, 2007 QuoteStep back and think about what you are about to get into... When the shit hits the fan, usually is not time for contemplation. If something went wrong that I might be able to help fix, then I am in, probably whether I wanted to or not - being a hero would have nothing to do with it -I assume reflex would just take over. Making saves is what individuals in my vocation have trained for; it is what I live for...Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #15 August 28, 2007 i think it would be a 'just react' sort of thing... I never have had to deal with a wrapped bridle situation.... but I think that I could NOT just lay there and video an ongoing emergency and do NOTHING..... I have intervened in a flat spin scenario,,, simply flying in level to the pair, and planting a hand on the TM's leg as it 'came around again'.... the drougue was out and at full stretch, we had lots of altitude, and i could simply tell that " this was not a TM controlled 360..... The look on his face when they stopped,,, told me i did the right thing...i also cued a TM to pull the D release handle while at about 8 grand once, when the main container opened while the pair was in droguefall . The main bag got out, was bouncing around above them, and linestows were starting to undo... Never had to touch ANYone on that dive,,, But i do believe that as a TEAM.... the TM and I averted a cutaway at the least, and who knows what, at the worst...I do believe it is possible that a TM might say to a new cameraman or else one who he does not know very well.... " thanks anyway, pal, but stay away from ME".. that's possibly due to the tm's lack of established trust in the camera person, or the fact that the video person is an unknown..... I think I would tend to do what i can when i can, IF it's apparent that a situation is NOT good and is NOT getting better.... lawyers be damned,,,, especially if the TM is a friend of mine... is it wrong or stupid, or arrogant??? to assume a role of 'safety monitor', on any skydive?? tandem or otherwise??? How about a freefall dive where you see someone collide and a jumper falls away uncontrolled.... Do you chase????.... welll i think i might..... especially if I know the person is NOT cypres equipped???.... And I make it a point to ask to observe and to know who Is and isn't AAD equipped...among the group of friends, w ith whom i do fun jumps.... I surely DON"T quiz everyone prior to boarding,,,,, But i DO talk with people during the day, or around the bonfire, or just in general chatter, and ask if they, in particular use an AAD.... I'm sure it won't surprise most here, to realize that Lots of folks who have been jumping a long time, choose Not to use one.. Sometimes it a pride thing, sometimes it's a money thing.... whatever.. to each his own... The thing is..... There is only a small window of opportunity, to respond,, in situations like these.... go a head and waste 5 or 10 seconds of that time, having an "in air debate" with yourself about "should I ??? ,,, or shouldn't I "??? and that window slams shut....!!!like basic E P 's... if you know ahead of time that you can confidently 'spring into action', your chances of success and the chances of the party in trouble , to safely get under a main,,, could be improved greatly....experience level counts here. and having run the scenerios though your head once or twice, beforehand, will help one decide on the right action ,,,,, or inaction..... I am by no means a super experienced cameraflyer, and accept certain limitations, in terms of fall rate, and chasing ability....But i feel like I know enough to be of assistance , and NOT a Liability.. lets hope such tests of our reactions, composure and quick thinking, are few and far between.. Jmy A 3914 D12122 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Peej 0 #16 August 28, 2007 Good post, thanks for your thoughts Jimmy and everyone else. I agree with your points about if the TI was a friend and it would be more of a just react kind of thing and it would definitely be situation dependent. I can see myself getting involved in the drouge out spin scenario but a drougue entanglement? I don't know. I'd be worried that the TI might go straight to his reserve and if i'm in the way i might end up killing all three of us. Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phantomII 36 #17 August 28, 2007 I'd be extremly careful with interfering with a TI in trouble. First he shouldn't get into trouble, but if he gets there he should Know what to do and that's the point where an outside person could be more of a problem than help. Just a question for everybody: What's the correct procedure for a bridle entanglement or a drogue entanglement? Answer: One try to solve the problem than deploy the reserve immediately to avoid highspeed. Notice it doesn't say, wait for the videographer to help you. The point I'm trying to make is that a TI is trained to handle these 'fuckups' and as long as you don't know what he's going to do, I'd recommend to stay away. Max Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murrays 0 #18 August 29, 2007 Kelvin Brundrett tried to save his friend, Tandem Master Steve West, and passenger Richard Cheung by attempting to untangle the main-reserve entanglement they experienced and then deploying his own parachute while holding onto the lines of the tandem rig. All three died. Kelvin's bravery and sacrifice earned him a Carnegie Medal. I still feel that 2 funerals would have been better than 3. You never know how you will react...the TM may be your best friend.-- Murray "No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
soaringeagle 0 #19 August 30, 2007 I've been shooting tandem video's for several years now and have seen some weird things happen, but nothing serious. If the TM is spinning I've gone in to help stop it. and have gotten thanks later. If it is really serious, I would definitely try to help if I can, but I do have a hard deck and a family to think about...that is also why I have an AAD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Erroll 49 #20 September 4, 2007 Quote...trying to save a friends life ...especially if the TM is a friend of mine ...if the TI was a friend ....tried to save his friend .....the TM may be your best friend. I am genuinely interested as to why the TM being one's friend should make any difference? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
