RSL and Camera helmets...

[YISkyDive 0]

this has been discussed before im sure- but a recent discussion and new gear purchase has me wanting to revisit the isssue.

I bought new risers and I opted for a set that did not have an RSL ring but does have inserts.

I plan on flying a full camera set up this summer 75% of the time- that means either a RAWA or FF2 Helmet(not decided yet-> sorry miami!), a PC101 with .43XWA lens, and a 300D with stock lens.

the way I used to do it is that with my old siderwinder helmet I kept the RSL on because the D-Box was very protective- but with the introduction of the 300D- there is a lot more potentially for an intense situation.

Would you fly an RSL? I know 90% of you will say no(which is cool) but why not? the reason I ask is becasue I met a camera flyer that truley and very deeply believes in the RSL.

Also- What about the skyhook? Does that change anything?

thank,

Dave.

[leapdog 0]

I'm not a camera flyer, but I do have a skyhook. This is what caught my interest in this thread. I'm also interested in reading the posts here because I'm going to give camera a try and I have the Skyhook.

I can tell you from a rigger stand point and from a rsl use stand point that if you are wanting to be clear of your garbage when you cut away then the Skyhook would not be something to have. Unless there is a bag or container lock, the bad main is effectively your reserve pilot chute. Basically, until the free bag is free of the reserve you are connected tothe main.

Since I don't fly camera yet, I don't know the pros/cons of an rsl so the post here will be interesting.

Gunnery Sergeant of Marines
"I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker

[The111 0]

Quote

Would you fly an RSL? I know 90% of you will say no(which is cool) but why not?

Nope, it's not worth the risk to me (is it possible? probably...). I removed my RSL a year before before I started flying camera, after it disconnected itself during a cutaway (I finished EP's anyway, obviously), I decided I didn't need it anymore, especially after it failed to work the only time I needed it to.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Zoter 0]

Is that a valid comment in thsi thread?
A functioning RSL should never be relied on as the sole way to deploy the reserve.....EP's should be fully completed regardless.
Why wouldnt you recommend having an RSL with a Camera setup?

I was taught the same......Cam helmets meant you should have no RSL /disconnect your RSL in case of your camera helmet being snagged and hindering a clean cutaway of your main and risking having the reserve fired into the still connected (via your helmet ) main.

A thread a while ago....suggested that if you were being suspended under your main by your head/cam helmet ....somethings going to give....either your neck or the weakest part of the helmet system.

This then suggested that you should recognise the snag on your helmet and clear it/ cut the helmet away away prior to cutting away the main...

Works both ways I guess.....if you are confident you can do the above (clear the helmet snag prior to chopping the main).....then an RSL is no problem.
If you are not confident, perhaps an RSL is a bad choice...

Either way it seems it is important to be able to cut away that helmet as easily as possible.

[freeflydrew 0]

for me the decision of an rsl has more to do with skydiving in general and less to do with which helmet is strapped to my head. I choose not to fly with a rsl because I believe that there will be times when the reserve deployment immediately following the main cutaway is not ideal.
But thats just me.

[mattjw916 2]

I would NEVER use an RSL when flying a camera helmet regardless of the design. None of the camera flyers I know use one either and recommend against them as well. The reasons have been beat to death all over this forum so there is no need to rehash it for the billionth time.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[Zoter 0]

The poster is asking for YOUR reasons why you would not jump one.....your post didnt exactly say anything other than you or your cam flying mates dont jump an RSL....not the reason WHY YOU dont jump one....

He's only askin'

[YISkyDive 0]

sorry?

[Miami 0]

Quote

that means either a RAWA or FF2 Helmet(not decided yet-> sorry miami!)

Hehe, no worries, I'm just here to help.

As to the question about whether jump an RSL with a camera setup...

I personally will not jump with an RSL whether I am jumping video or not. I do however recommend that less experienced jumpers use an RSL.

I personally want to have the option to take a second or so to get stable after a cutaway before deploying my reserve. If I am low enough that I am not afforded the time to get stable first then I have the option to dump my reserve immediately following my cutaway.

Someone with less experience may not be able to clearly discriminate when they have that time to get stable first, so that's why I suggest an RSL for them. When are they able to make that determination accurately? I don't know. It really depends on the person and their comfort level with performing their emergency procedures.

Miami

[The111 0]

Quote

Is that a valid comment in thsi thread?
A functioning RSL should never be relied on as the sole way to deploy the reserve.....EP's should be fully completed regardless.

It is a sidenote; you can determine if that makes it "invalid".

Quote

Why wouldnt you recommend having an RSL with a Camera setup?

I answered that, in the first sentence of my post. The rest of my post was the sidenote about my feelings on RSL's in general.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[mattjw916 2]

The risk of an RSL deploying any part of the reserve or its deployment system into a partially cutaway main that is in tow due to being snagged on any part of the camera helmet is a risk that outweighs the "safety" of having one. Camera flyers should not be sucking it down anyway and hopefully will have a little more time to pull both handles.

Bottom-line is that you don't _need_ an RSL to deploy your reserve, but you do _need_ to have your main cutaway cleanly in order to reduce the chance of a reserve malfunction due to entanglement.

If worse comes to worse, and my helmet is snagged and I can't clear it or get my helmet off, I'm still dumping my reserve anyway because if you are going to land under a ball of shit, it better be a big one.

I can't believe we really needed yet another thread about this?!!

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[mattjw916 2]

Just ignore Zoter... I do.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[Zoter 0]

New people ask questions as they embark on new disciplines.....
Whilst a targeted search is a good start......there is NOTHING wrong about asking the same questions again to get the most up to date answers /responses you can get...

This whole....flog a dead horse....do we really need.....yadda yadda yadda is just impolite and unnecessary.
If the poster cant do a search properly, for whatever reason .....should they be denied that information?
Answer the question or choose not to answer it.....the decision is yours and nobody is twisting your arm to do that....but dont have a go at someone for asking.

[Zoter 0]

Quote

Just ignore Zoter... I do.

Obviously you dont.....
Please reference your posts in this thread as an example .....
>

[leapdog 0]

I am replying to the thread in general.

I seem to remember in my coach training that an RSL is a device not to be relied upon and that it is a back up device only. Emergency procedures still should be done. I still practice this way, I pretent as if the back up devices don't exists.

With that being said, The question is to have or not to have and why?

I have, because I want the back up device.

I don't fly camera, but I would like to.

So far from what I have read/heard, reasons for not having an RSL pertain to the thought (I gather because of sentence structure and vocabulary) that an RSL is a primary device and that there is plenty of stuff on the helmet for a main to get caught on. I define a main as Risers, lines, slider, pilot chute, and canopy.

This poses other thoughts, how many times has any part of a main snagged on a camera set up and why?
Why is there plenty of things on a set up for a main to get caught on?

Assuming that you DON'T have a snot rag for a canopy that will mal in a heart beat and spin you like a top, I'm beginning to think that if you deploy your main in a stable body position then the chances for anything getting caught on a smooth no snag set up will be very slim.

I'm also thinking that someone that is new to camera flying may experience a loss in altitude awarness at the exspense of focusing on filming. Therefore, if you were to pull low and have a mal then a RSL may be beneficial if pulling stable and not jumping a small hiPer while also using a setup that was virtually snag free.

I have a square as in not olipticle(sp?) HiPer, 1:1 load, I will build a set up that is smooth and protected.

So last question- would I be on the right track generally speaking?

Gunnery Sergeant of Marines
"I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker

[mattjw916 2]

You are still assuming best-case IMO. What if you aren't the one that deploys your main? What if you have a premature during a transition and that causes the entanglement? The possible scenarios are endless.

I jump an elliptical with video, as do tons of other people successfully. Others jump x-brace with video, no biggie... as long as the canopy has consistent and relatively slow openings they are fine for flying camera with IMO. One of my friends jumps a Velo 79 with all kinds of stuff on his head... not saying _I_ would, but he jumps waaaay more than me and is still alive after over 5000 jumps.

Regardless of how smooth your setup is, shit can still happen regardless of the size of main or its degree of taper. Thinking you can avoid having a mal just because you have a big square canopy is not realistic IMO. Malfunctions can happen on anything. Use an RSL or don't, it's your choice. Like I said earlier _none_ of the camera flyers I know use one. In fact I have only met one camera flyer _ever_ that had one and he really didn't have a good explanation as to why.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[leapdog 0]

Quote

You are still assuming best-case IMO. What if you aren't the one that deploys your main? What if you have a premature during a transition and that causes the entanglement? The possible scenarios are endless.

One of my friends jumps a Velo 79 with all kinds of stuff on his head... not saying _I_ would, but he jumps waaaay more than me and is still alive after over 5000 jumps.

Regardless of how smooth your setup is, shit can still happen regardless of the size of main or its degree of taper. Thinking you can avoid having a mal just because you have a big square canopy is not realistic IMO. Malfunctions can happen on anything. Use an RSL or don't, it's your choice. Like I said earlier _none_ of the camera flyers I know use one. In fact I have only met one camera flyer _ever_ that had one and he really didn't have a good explanation as to why.

I'm not an online dweller, soI gotta ask what is IMO?

Who else would deploy my main? I have the skill to transistion when I'm just tarting out?

I agree scenerios are endless you can't guard against them all. Just the ones that are the most frequent and most likely, in my opinion it makes sense.

5000+ jumps is more experience than no video jumps.

I didn't say I thought since the main was big that it wouldn't mal. I'm a rigger I know better than that.

So what would/ could happen with a smooth set up?

I asked all these questions and posted thoughts in all my post here because I seek guidance not to debate. just wanted to make that clear.

Gunnery Sergeant of Marines
"I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker

[tdog 0]

I had some of the same questions as you - especially about the skyhook...

Not that Bill Booth is god, but he did invent it - so I asked him in a skydivingradio.com interview... Perhaps you could download that as part of your education.

[Zoter 0]

Quote

I'm not an online dweller, soI gotta ask what is IMO?

In my opinion

[davelepka 4]

OK, heres a thought. On another thread about using a helemt cutaway, the idea was that you wanted to check for a camera snag before cutting away to prevent the canopy from trying to rip your head off if you do cutaway (the canopy) with a snag present. In the event of no sang, proceed with EP's as normal.

This sounds reasonable to me.

Lets extend the situation to jumping a rig with an RSL. Lets say you have a mal, and your canopy is snagged on your lid. You'll want to loose the helmet before cutting away in order to keep your head on your neck. After you've cutaway (the helmet) or taken off the helmet, wouldn't an RSL be a non-issue at this point? As in the RSL is free to do it's job without restriction?

It seems to me the whole premise of not using an RSL for fear of a canopy snag of the non-RSL riser, and the RSL riser releasing and firing off the reserve, is based on the concept that you will cutaway with a canopy snagged on your helmet, which may or may not remove your head from your body.

I guess if you include "Check for and try to clear any snags" to your EP's before you cutaway, the RSL might be OK to jump with a camera. To me, that seems like a good addition to your EP's.

Note I said 'Might' be OK. Also note that I don't jump an RSL in any way (except when I borrow a student rig to film CREW). These are just some random thoughts on the RSL situation.

[YISkyDive 0]

Thank you very much for the help. Thats an awsome post- which I did not see at all when I searched..

Thank you Dave.

(and too others)

[davelepka 4]

One other thing to think about is that adding anything to your EPs makes them more complicated, and that increases your chances of screwing it up.

Cutting away with a snag might ruin your day. Not cutting away at all will ruin your day. Keep in mind that you can only fight a snag for so long. The longer you spend with the snag, the less time you have left if you have trouble finding a handle, or a hard pull on either side.

The first lines of defence are a clean camera helmet, good gear maintenence, clean packing (which isn't what you get when you pay someone else) and an opening plan that keeps your cameras clear of the situation.

The whole thing is scary and dangerous and fucked up. Most of my jumps are with a camera or two.

[Miami 0]

My concern with RSL's(and the concern of most camera flyers I've spoken with) is not about having a main entangled with my gear, either causing or during a cutaway...it's about my reserve getting fired while I am still unstable and the freebag or reserve itself becoming entangled with me or my gear...that's why I don't jump an RSL.

I could care less if I have an RSL or not if my main is wrapped around my head...an RSL does nothing to help or not help me get the wad of crap off of me.

Miami

[mattjw916 2]

Just so everyone's clear, I wasn't endorsing it, or not endorsing it... I was just throwing out ideas.

As for who else could deploy your main... a lot of stuff can happen in freefall, on climb-out, on exit, or just randomly occur. Proper gear maintenance will prevent a lot but you there is always the unknown. There are no guarantees in this sport, that's why there are waivers (obviously). I have seen numerous premature main and reserve deployments though. In fact, I just put together a compilation video of scary skydives for personal amusement.

As for Dave's idea to check for snags before cutting away, yes I can see the benefit of doing that. But, what if your risers are crossed in front of your face obscuring your view or crossed behind your head preventing you from looking up to checK? What if you have canopy collision while videoing leading to a wrap or entanglement, because you didn't see someone, since you were too focused on getting a particluar shot? Sure you _could_ just disconnect it, but that little tab may be hard to find in the confusion...

To me, it's just easier to live without an RSL than to have one. I have one set of EPs regardless of what I'm doing or what rig I wearing... breakaway, hopefully cleanly, and deploy reserve. If I fail to pull all my handles before earth greets me, I have no one to blame but myself.

I definately respect Bill Booth's opinion and the Skyhook is definately an impressive device, but I don't think it belongs on a vidiot's rig regardless of what his Skyhook promo-video implies.

Just my $0.02.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[nate_1979 9]

Quote

My concern with RSL's(and the concern of most camera flyers I've spoken with) is not about having a main entangled with my gear, either causing or during a cutaway...it's about my reserve getting fired while I am still unstable and the freebag or reserve itself becoming entangled with me or my gear...that's why I don't jump an RSL.

I could care less if I have an RSL or not if my main is wrapped around my head...an RSL does nothing to help or not help me get the wad of crap off of me.

I dont currently jump with an RSL, I had it removed before jump 100 after my second chop, ... I fly a FF2 which is really clean, very few if any snag points. I have thought this through quite abit, and know atleast one camera flyer that backs up my thoughts on this, .. I think that if I have entanglement w/ main I should chop the helmet before the main to avoid the minor inconvenience of getting my head ripped off. As mentioned by miami in above post, that leaves the RSL to deploy your reserve unstable and cause an entanglement during that deployment which is clearly a bad situation, .. I have made my own choice that skyhook changes a couple things about the reserve deployment and as soon as my new Vector III is ready to go (soon!) I will continue to jump my FF2 w/ the skyhook installed... But that's just me, and I clearly dont have alot of experience with this stuff, only my own interpretation of risks levels involved with the different choices.

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.