Gravitymaster 0 #26 February 12, 2003 Rob Thanks for the excellent response and information. I know where rigger rate as far as the FAA is concerned and you are 100% correct that would be a huge obstacle to overcome. I understand and agree with your observations about who I would rather have packing my reserve, but my question was more along the line of allowing the skydiver to ONLY pack his own reserve, not anyone elses. One of the reasons in favor of creating this catagory would be the possibility of reducing the number of pencil packed reserves which we all know occur. I also think most skydivers would be pretty serious about inspection if it was their own gear they were inspecting. I usually group skydivers into 2 catagories as far as this is concerned. There's the group who toss their gear to a packer because they are anxious to get to the debreif and then on the next load, and there are those who pack there own mains. I think the "Junior Rigger" Certification might appeal to these later folks and would probably lead to them getting a lot of experience before going on to obtaining their Senior Rigger Certificate. Just a thought, It would probably never happen anyway because of many of the reasons you point out. I do think its a good idea to include some degree of rigging training in the new 'D' licence certification FWIW. Then there's always the politics of something like thisBob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #27 February 12, 2003 Simple way to prevent Pencil packs is to use a stamp that has all the lines of the info on it. I've seen one that has the Date, says I&R has the riggers sig, seal and certificate number on it. No way to change that one with out getting a hold of the stamp and if the entire card is full of stamps and one hand written entry it shouls raise questions with manifest.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DBCOOPER 1 #28 February 12, 2003 Its scary enough jumping my"main"pack jobs.....Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #29 February 13, 2003 QuoteSimple way to prevent Pencil packs is to use a stamp that has all the lines of the info on it. I've seen one that has the Date, says I&R has the riggers sig, seal and certificate number on it. No way to change that one with out getting a hold of the stamp and if the entire card is full of stamps and one hand written entry it shouls raise questions with manifest. I never underestimate the ingenuity of someone trying to subvert any system. My understanding is one of the reasons USPA went from the paper membership cards to the plastic coated was because people were forging them. So how simple is it to have your own stamp made. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #30 February 13, 2003 QuoteSimple way to prevent Pencil packs is to use a stamp that has all the lines of the info on it. I've seen one that has the Date, says I&R has the riggers sig, seal and certificate number on it. No way to change that one with out getting a hold of the stamp and if the entire card is full of stamps and one hand written entry it shouls raise questions with manifest. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I never underestimate the ingenuity of someone trying to subvert any system. My understanding is one of the reasons USPA went from the paper membership cards to the plastic coated was because people were forging them. So how simple is it to have your own stamp made. I had a stamp made to prevent pencil packing. It was a pain and cost $25.00. Someone might go through the trouble, but if they are too lazy/cheap to get their reserve re-packed, then they are probably too lazy/cheap to get a stamp made. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eames 0 #31 February 13, 2003 A stamp is supposed to prevent pencil packing? Sheesh. All you need is a spare packing data card to get around that. A person could pencil pack their own long, consistent history of packjobs onto it too. If you really wanted to prevent pencil packing, I guess you could go around ripping your seals off after 120 days.... But that's only a little better. Jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #32 February 13, 2003 Too much work for the lazy/cheap pencil packer type.Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #33 February 13, 2003 Pretty soon, packing data cards are gonna have to be notarized. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 561 #34 February 13, 2003 quote:"I do think its a good idea to include some degree of rigging training in the new 'D' license certification." end quote./reply] Mr. Gravitymaster, I agree with you. A couple of years ago I suggested including basic rigging skills in CSPA's new licnese, but my suggestion never got past committee. Ideally you should be able to hand any "D" License holder 4 connector links and a canopy and he would be in the air an hour later. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #35 February 13, 2003 Quote Mr. Gravitymaster, Knock it off with the MR. GRAVITYMASTER. Quote I agree with you. A couple of years ago I suggested including basic rigging skills in CSPA's new licnese, but my suggestion never got past committee. Ideally you should be able to hand any "D" License holder 4 connector links and a canopy and he would be in the air an hour later. An hour?...... Oh, you mean packing the main and reserve? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dkpbxman 0 #36 February 13, 2003 I got my Senior Rigger's ticket a few years ago and have used it mainly for re-packs,some minor repairs. I like the fact that re-packs are now one less worry in my world (inconvenience, cost, trust, etc.) but thinking back I guess the main reason I did it was because I wanted to know as much as possible about something that routinely saved my life. I have never wanted to make skydiving a "job" and only do rigging work for other people when they ask me for help. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerm 0 #37 February 13, 2003 Quote Ideally you should be able to hand any "D" License holder 4 connector links and a canopy and he would be in the air an hour later. And yet this past summer i got to do a main assembly and continuity check for someone with 1600 jumps cause they had NO clue what to do. It was a teacher, no less. Aren't they usually the ones who are all about pursuit of knowledge? Goes back to my peeve about people knowing dick about their equipment...... then again that's what keeps riggers in business. Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 561 #38 February 13, 2003 Yes, it would be nice if every "D" License holder knew the basics of assembling a canopy. On the other hand, if they did understand the basics of rigging, I would be out of a job. It seems that modern fun jumpers just want to come out for two or three jumps on a sunny Saturday afternoon and leave all that sweaty, dusty packing to professionals. Excuse me if this makes me sound like a money-grubbing capitalist, but the more money they leave at the DZ the better. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #39 February 14, 2003 Why did I get my riggers ticket? Well, I've got a pet peave about experienced jumpers... several hundred jumps... that cannot hook-up or do a continuity check on a main. I've got a "natural curiosity" about gear and technical stuff. Not everyone needs to ba a rigger or a jumpmaster, but I feel that the more you learn about gear and jumpmastering and this sport the better off you are. I see folks making decissions when they're really uninformed. They decide on something because it is "in style" or the "hot new thing" or because some "skygod said so" rather then researching it themselves and making their own choice... if they make a choice that I may not make myself, but they do it after thinking it through for themselves that cool... where as it burns me when I hear someone saying something like, "blah blah blah are bad!"... I ask, well, why?... and you get a response that starts and ends with "so and so said so cause of this one particular situation." GRRRRR! In fact, when someone asks me a question on gear, I'll give them my opinion and then frequently say, "That's what I think, go ask some other people and think about it for yourself." I feel it makes me more flexible as a skydiver... as in I can deal with my own gear if I go someplace other then my home DZ where I knew all the riggers. Also... okay, I laid out a bunch of money to get my rigger's ticket, but also now I don't have to pay someone to repack my reserve now... and while I don't pack a bunch of reserves every week, I do repacks for other folks and pick up some pocket money a few times a month... weird thing is, I don't do it so much for the cash... I've always said if I had to pack for a living, I'd starve... I do it cause I enjoy it in some wierd way. Its a skill I wanted to learn and its fun learning now skills that catch your interest no matter what they are. I jump my rig, I pack my reserve, I jump my rig, I know where my molar strap is... I trust myself not to leave it in the pack-job... and I don't use clamps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dex 0 #40 February 18, 2003 Quote One of the reasons in favor of creating this catagory would be the possibility of reducing the number of pencil packed reserves which we all know occur. I think if X jumper could sign off on his own reserve packjob that he could pencil pack even easier then now. but at least he is pencil packing with this "ass" on the lines.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ernokaikkonen 0 #41 February 20, 2003 >Why are you a rigger? Or studying to be one? Beats me. I've been packing reserves for three days straigth now, and I feel like I've been thoroughly beaten up with a very large stick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
