Another mantis question...

[jumper03 0]

This one concerns fall rate. A little back ground first -

Our team nick name is the feather butts - avg fall rate is around 104 mph. I've got baggy cotton forearms on my RW suit and I have them out there to catch as much air as possible and also wear a t-shirt over my jumpsuit for some more drag. Two of the other team members wear weights. So between all of that we can stay on level.

My question is - I want to bring my arms into the mantis so I can turn quicker - can I fly that slow in that position?

Or I guess a more basic question - how much faster do you fall in the mantis vs. arms out?

Scars remind us that the past is real

[rehmwa 2]

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......... I've got baggy cotton forearms on my RW suit and I have them out there to catch as much air as possible and also wear a t-shirt over my jumpsuit for some more drag. .......- can I fly that slow in that position?

Or I guess a more basic question - how much faster do you fall in the mantis vs. arms out?

can you fall that slow in an effective mantis? the answer sounds like "NO" to me for your situation - it won't work if you aren't shaped properly, and lots of baggy stuff doesn't help the cause either - mantis = smooth and clean airflow. The teammates need to add weight and/or get narrow and faster in their stance. Are they mantis with narrow knees and tight elbows?

2nd question on how much faster mantis vs box - mantis has more range on both the top and the bottom end. But performance shouldn't count on the extra range, it should count on being mantis in the right body position - you should be flying in a strong but comfortable mantis (your fall rate mid range).

Go take a tunnel camp with the team, start with individual skills training first. With a great coach - call Chromy.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[bob.dino 0]

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I've got baggy cotton forearms on my RW suit and I have them out there to catch as much air as possible and also wear a t-shirt over my jumpsuit for some more drag.

You should not be wearing a t-shirt to slow down; everyone else needs to put on more lead. I'm also not a fan of "baggy cotton forearms", but others may disagree.

All my teammates wore at least 5kg of lead. Hell, even the camera wore 7kg! It's normal.

[VanillaSkyGirl 6]

Good lord, your team mates need to wear more lead and to learn to fly in a faster mantis.

[GQ_jumper 4]

If miss Rosa here can fly with me when I outweigh her by over 100 pounds and wear a fitted RW suit than your teammates can pack on a bit of extra lead to keep up with you. You should never have to adjust to a slower guy when doing RW, everyone should speed up to match the faster person, so long as that faster person isn't ridiculously fast.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[StreetScooby 5]

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You should never have to adjust to a slower guy when doing RW, everyone should speed up to match the faster person, so long as that faster person isn't ridiculously fast.

Agreed. 100%.

We are all engines of karma

[damion75 0]

This doesn't answer your question, but may provide some other help. The brand new(ish) FS coach and student manuals from the BPA are available online at http://www.bpa.org.uk/trainingmanuals.htm

They were written by Aaron Faith from the UK 4-Way Team and contain a lot of info about body position...

May be of interest...

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[foxyroxtail 0]

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2nd question on how much faster mantis vs box - mantis has more range on both the top and the bottom end. But performance shouldn't count on the extra range, it should count on being mantis in the right body position - you should be flying in a strong but comfortable mantis (your fall rate mid range).

I do not agree in regards to flying FS. In the fastest mantis position, you can not take grips, therefore, the highest mantis speed can only be acheived in solo flight, as in tunnel drills or when approaching a formation. A Box is also the slowest, although it is certainly a stretched out one. Mantis is only effecient for one's personal mid-range fall rate.

Relative to FS, the relaxed Box will generally allow you to both perform (take grips for points) and have the greatest range of fall rate (slow or fast).

Proof statements: 1) Craig Girard did not fly mantis when setting the fall rate for the 400-way. 2) It's been a long time since I've seen anyone recover from "low" by utilizing a mantis body position.

If you want to fly mantis in 4-way:

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Go take a tunnel camp with the team, start with individual skills training first. With a great coach - call Chromy.

Agreed! Learn the body position and then your teammies will need to adjust to whatever your fall rate is.

So, jumper03, I think there is time available at a camp with Chromy that some jumpers at your DZ are attending.

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[rehmwa 2]

R - I think we're discussing semantics in terms of slow fall, My slow fall is a long board using my booties with my head up and arms in front (superman). It's not really mantis as such, but it comes "from" that base so I call it part of mantis - it's much more efficient for slow fall than box imo. I rarely see anyone recovering effectively from low "hugging the beach ball" (which I associate with the Boxman). So I suspect we're calling the same slow speed body position two different things. I can see how what I associate with mantis slow fall could be considered "certainly a stretched out boxman" as you noted.

And we agree on the mantis in our comfortable mid range speed, of course.

And for the high end, the fast mantis is pretty well hugging yourself (elbows and hands in to the torso) which isn't good for grips at all (we agree again) and nothing recommended here for the original poster's teammates (who should belt up some more weight). However, in the 4-way, they might find they need less weight than in a box if they stay narrow with the knees and elbow in their mantis. (i.e., as you know, if you can stay narrow, the comfort zone in a mantis can be a bit faster, and narrow knees it what really help me to get proper pressurization. and thus dynamic and crisper mobility).

I don't know what you call a 'relaxed Box'. And I would like to learn. Big ways are fun and don't require manuverability as much as control and stability. So I suspect that once you're in, a less dynamic stance makes sense - less flat, more flow to hold position and absorb shocks. When I'm in a big way, I'm less elbows down and in front and more squared off, kind of like boxman, but I'm still using my booties for control and stability and keeping my chin up. But when things speed up, I take a lesson from mantis and bring the elbows in (and down), instead of back (trying to 'arch' harder with my arms) - that way I don't get stuck on my restricted top end for that boxman trying to go faster without any manuverability. It works well and I've always had a ton of range. I could never do that with a pure boxman mentality.

Either way, cleaner flow is needed, wearing a t-shirt and humping the air won't help in any discipline. though it doesn't hurt the CrW dawgs much.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Reginald 0]

Well, first of all your team has other issues you guys need to fix first. Second, I disagree with people that a mantis is inherently faster than a box this is a common misperception. If it is than ya probably ain’t flying it right… Flame away…

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[billvon 2,400]

>Second, I disagree with people that a mantis is inherently faster than a box this is a common misperception.

Depends on how it's done, of course. In most cases, the mantis means your arms are closer together and more beneath you than in a boxman, and this results in a faster fallrate than a "standard" boxman, which puts a lot of drag out in front. But if you're going from a "W of distress" (Kate's name for fast-fall boxman) to my version of mantis (arms close together, but not too much lower than a boxman) the mantis will be a bit slower.

[Reginald 0]

Well, arms in is only one part of the equation. The head and chest perched up causes a person to have to extend their legs farther out too. Legs out avoids backsliding from the air spilling off the front due to the position of the head and chest. So, although arms are in, legs are out generating drag, and hence no additional rate of fall rate is imposed.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[GQ_jumper 4]

my legs aren't out further when i'm in a mantis position, being in the mantis actually allows me to bring them in to increase my fall rate

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[Ron 7]

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my legs aren't out further when i'm in a mantis position, being in the mantis actually allows me to bring them in to increase my fall rate

The difference is what angle are your legs to the horizon?

Most "Box" positions have them pulled back more than a "mantis"

Also, most "box" positions have your chest arched while the "mantis" has your chest cupping air.

Given all things being equal....I would have to say Mantis would be slower.

However, I think the whole "X" is faster than "Y" thing is mostly junk. Either position can be adjusted to match fallrates and most would make that adjustment without even thinking.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[GQ_jumper 4]

that's a great point Ron, either can be adjusted when i really need to punch it out sometimes i'll put my arms almost staight up over my head to arch my chest more, not a mantis or box really a little of both.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[billvon 2,400]

> Well, arms in is only one part of the equation.

Definitely. As Ron mentioned, saying "X is faster than Y" isn't really conclusive because fallrate is dependent on your overall body postion - as well as half a dozen other things including jumpsuit type, bootie size, how close you are to someone else (or the tunnel wall!) etc. Heck, a slow-fall rate trick Craig showed me that works with megabooties has the opposite effect when you try it in a suit without booties (or with shoe covers.)

[rehmwa 2]

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However, I think the whole "X" is faster than "Y" thing is mostly junk.

truth

my personal experience is that mantis has more dynamic range for both slow and fast - I have more fall rate range and can get there faster and with more ability to maneuver and with better visibility when I am there. The boxman extremes seem to tie me up at the extremes and are wobbly and my arms are stuck and my legs are stuck. At the mantis extremes, I can still fly a bit and take grips in front of me and not behind me. Roxy noted that at the "max mantis" the arms are confined elbows close and hidden under the torso - this is true. But at "Max Boxman" the elbows are tied up way up and back and hands high. I don't see the difference in mobility as implied, but in the mantis at least I'm not stressing out my rotator cuff.

Personally, from a basic mantis, I can fly both slower and faster than I ever could in my old boxman. And still be able to manuver and still be locked stable with proper pressurization. That beats hugging the beach ball and arching the chest instead of the hips any day.

most likely, I just haven't learned to get all I can from the old boxman that I could have. I'm not really feeling like I've missed anything. If I get into big ways again, I'm open to new learning though.

(your results may vary - not applicable in New Jersey and Puerto Rico, void where prohibited)

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jumper03 0]

well, thanks for all the responses. The upshot of all this is I just need to get myself to a tunnel to get some grade A coaching and find out for myself.

Scars remind us that the past is real

[skyminxx 0]

Pm or call me about the tunnel camp we are going to in September

You are led through your lifetime by the inner learning creature, the playful spiritual being that is your real self.-Richard Bach