Booties make me top heavy at break off?

[Westie 0]

I have recently brought my first RW suit with booties, they seem to give me a little more power to keep me in the formation which I like, but when Its time for break off and I start tracking I feel as though Im going very steep?

could this be something to do with my new suit?

13's unlucky for some, but not for old Fred!

[zhark 0]

I definitely notice a big difference when tracking with and without booties. Dunno about "steep" but definately faster. Howz your body position in the track?

I used to go pretty steep in a track, until I did some tracking dives with some really good freeflyers and that sorted my tracking out. Perhaps you should try that with someone competent in tracking and they'll be able to tell you exactly what potting with your track (or your suit)

blues,
Jacques

[AMax 0]

Quote

I have recently brought my first RW suit with booties, they seem to give me a little more power to keep me in the formation which I like, but when Its time for break off and I start tracking I feel as though Im going very steep?

could this be something to do with my new suit?

Quote

I have recently brought my first RW suit with booties, they seem to give me a little more power to keep me in the formation which I like, but when Its time for break off and I start tracking I feel as though Im going very steep?

could this be something to do with my new suit?

Yes, you got more power on lower legs.

Initial steepness depends to a great extent on the way how you leave the formation. One very common mistake people make is turning around and starting to track as quickly as possible. As a result, you transition to your flat track position through some sort of delta (more appropriate for diving) and loose altitude. De arching and grabbing the air before you turn around, during 180 and first second of tracking will help gaining altitude relatively the rest of formation.

The second issue is body position during a track. The most important details you want to pay attention to are
- de arching (upper body and center of gravity)
- brining the shoulders up and rolling them in
- brining arms close to torso and keeping them low (not behind your back)
- fully extending the lower legs (bending the lower legs is very common mistake)

There are several very good articles about tracking here at DZ.com. Do a search for Hooknswoop's posts.

P.S.: I don't think that tracking dives with freeflyers are helpful for improving the flat track.

[AggieDave 6]

Similar thing happened to me when I got my first RW suit (after having worn FF suits all the time).

I had to concentrate on dearching, shoulders, arms...then legs, if I popped the legs out first it would crank me down at an angle, if I do it the correct way I track at the appropiate angle very quickly.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[headoverheels 291]

You're going to have to extend your feet more slowly as you begin your track. Without booties, you can pretty much just turn and hit your track position. With the booties, you extend them as you pick up speed over 1-2 seconds. After a hundred jumps, it will seem natural.

[matthewcline 0]

I think Amax and Aggie Dave hit the nail on the head.

De-arch AS you turn (it will become second nature and look fluid with practice) then, once near or on the heading you want, extend those legs all the way out! Make sure your mouth is closed your going to be moving!

Seriously, I watched lot of 4-way video recently and the top 3 team from nationals this year seam to use the method Amax and Aggie Dave describe.

In my opinion if jumpers with 1000's of jumps and oodles of gold medal's who are wearing weights can GAIN altitude at break off there must be some thing there.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[freakbrother 0]

Quote

I think Amax and Aggie Dave hit the nail on the head.

De-arch AS you turn (it will become second nature and look fluid with practice) then, once near or on the heading you want, extend those legs all the way out! Make sure your mouth is closed your going to be moving!

Seriously, I watched lot of 4-way video recently and the top 3 team from nationals this year seam to use the method Amax and Aggie Dave describe.

In my opinion if jumpers with 1000's of jumps and oodles of gold medal's who are wearing weights can GAIN altitude at break off there must be some thing there.

Matt

Watch a few big way videos. Getting away from 100+ other skydivers is very important, yet you see all sorts of tracking from outstanding to awful.

The best trackers DO enter the track while still turning; by the time they've done a 180 they are already accelerating away. However, being able to turn straight into a flat track takes practice. Getting a little training from a really good tracker helps too. I was fortunate that Roger Nelson, who was a really good tracker, instructed me.

I have video that illustrates the point, I'll see if I can capture and post some stills from it.

.
.
www.freak-brother.com

[freakbrother 0]

OK, here are 5 partial frames from a big way last summer, right at breakoff. Less than three seconds covers the entire set of frames. Same six jumpers are in every frame. Number the jumpers #1 through #6 from the left.

frame 0 - breakoff just signalled. Jumpers 3 and 4 have released grips, and #3 starts his turn.

frame 1 - jumper #1 missed the signal, #2 thru 6 are turning

frame 2 - #2, 3 and 5 have finished their turns. #5 is already in a track. #1 hasn't responded yet.

frame 3 - #2 and #5 in full track, #1 is turning #6 made slow turn but is in full track. #4 still grabbing air.

frame 4 - #5 is already about 25 ft ahead of #1. #2 and 5, the quickest to get into a full track, are clearly moving ahead. #6 is catching #4.

.
.
www.freak-brother.com

[AMax 0]

Just wanted to add that having a freefall reference is quite helpful for improvement of tracking skills. Video is good, but usually it only captures the first few seconds of track after break off and the angle is not ideal for evaluation of your body position. Every time you make a skydive with someone whose tracking skills are proven to be good, try to notice your position in a sky relatively to that person immediately after break off and during track (of course, the safety is a first priority and you should not sacrifice it for this exercise). The things to pay attention to are the distance (can you track as far as that person?) and levels (are you on the same level, lower of may be even higher?).

But once again, tracking dives with free flyers are not the best way to improve flat track since they usually use different body position.

[freakbrother 0]

Quote

Quote

Watch a few big way videos. Getting away from 100+ other skydivers is very important, yet you see all sorts of tracking from outstanding to awful.

OK, I'm on a roll now. Four more pics from a recent "invitational" 100+ way. That means everyone there is supposed to be good at all aspects of big ways, it's not a training camp.

Watch how the jumper with the pink sleeves turns straight into her track (I'm fairly sure it's Flyangel2). See how much altitude and distance she gains compared to the jumpers around her.

The guy who starts out on her left (black suit) must be catatonic. He just stays there in his Mantis, doesn't seem aware that there's a big way breaking off around him. The guy on her right also seems rather slow to figure out what's happening.

REMEMBER, these are all in the first wave of a staged breakoff. A couple seconds later the next stage will be following them. It's very disconcerting to turn to track and find some slowpoke from the previous wave staring you in the face!

Also, frame20, different jump. Guy at bottom left - this is a track?

.
.
www.freak-brother.com

• Quote

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Watch a few big way videos. Getting away from 100+ other skydivers is very important, yet you see all sorts of tracking from outstanding to awful.

OK, I'm on a roll now. Four more pics from a recent "invitational" 100+ way. That means everyone there is supposed to be good at all aspects of big ways, it's not a training camp.

Watch how the jumper with the pink sleeves turns straight into her track (I'm fairly sure it's Flyangel2). See how much altitude and distance she gains compared to the jumpers around her.

The guy who starts out on her left (black suit) must be catatonic. He just stays there in his Mantis, doesn't seem aware that there's a big way breaking off around him. The guy on her right also seems rather slow to figure out what's happening.

REMEMBER, these are all in the first wave of a staged breakoff. A couple seconds later the next stage will be following them. It's very disconcerting to turn to track and find some slowpoke from the previous wave staring you in the face!

Also, frame20, different jump. Guy at bottom left - this is a track?

Were you on those dives?

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

• Quote

[Westie 0]

Cheers everyone.

Will try all of the above

13's unlucky for some, but not for old Fred!

[freakbrother 0]

Here's an interesting track I saw last year:

He seemed to be moving pretty fast and flat in the video, although I only saw him do it once during the boogie. Rest of the time he tracked "normally".

It's a capture from interlaced video so the quality sucks.

.
.
www.freak-brother.com

[rehmwa 2]

Lot of advice here, Westie.

Timing, etc will come with practice. If the booties are giving you a ton of lift, then you just need to leverage it with more efficiency in your upper body, too.

One simple thing thing to try - when your arms are back and down, roll your hands over so your thumbs point to your waist/thighs and the backs of your hands are facing to the ground. That will help you roll your shoulders down and over more and cup more air towards your lower body rather than spill out sideways = more thrust.

Take advantage of those booties, lay 'em on their sides and really point your toes to keep the booties taut. They'll give you tons of energy.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[AMax 0]

Quote

Lot of advice here, Westie.

One simple thing thing to try - when your arms are back and down, roll your hands over so your thumbs point to your waist/thighs and the backs of your hands are facing to the ground. That will help you roll your shoulders down and over more and cup more air towards your lower body rather than spill out sideways = more thrust.

Plus you can read your alti while still in track.

[salling772 0]

booties will help you with your track two way. one it will give you a speed bost and two it will help you with tracking flater with the speed you will get more lift on you track like a airplane wing

----------------------------------------------
All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you. J. R. T.

[flyangel2 2]

Oh my Yes, that's me. I'm sure glad I track my ass off.


Because I'm watching the base for that break off signal, the second I see it, I'm so out of there. I also do get some good lift as I'm turning. So far I haven't had a major problem finding clear air space on the big ways I've been on.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[freakbrother 0]

Quote

Oh my Yes, that's me. I'm sure glad I track my ass off.


Because I'm watching the base for that break off signal, the second I see it, I'm so out of there. I also do get some good lift as I'm turning. So far I haven't had a major problem finding clear air space on the big ways I've been on.

That's because you are way out ahead of everyone else. It's the others I worry about!

.
.
www.freak-brother.com

[dgskydive 0]

Who was next to ya Mary? To be honest it looks like he is having an equipment malfunction. See how his hands aren't really in the Mantis. Almost looks like he is fixing his wind shield.

At first I thought that was me but you and I never docked next to each other.

These are stills from the 100 ways before nationals right?

Dom

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

Who was next to ya Mary? To be honest it looks like he is having an equipment malfunction. See how his hands aren't really in the Mantis. Almost looks like he is fixing his wind shield.

At first I thought that was me but you and I never docked next to each other.

These are stills from the 100 ways before nationals right?

Dom,

You were near me, a quadrant around from Mary. I think you are 3rd from left in this set of stills:

www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1435381#1435381

So if you have a helmet malfunction at breakoff time on a 100+ way, what should you do?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[flyangel2 2]

Dom, I'm not going to name names. I'm not sure if the person had a malfunction with his wind shield, he never said anything to me, but that's not to say it didn't happen.

John, to answer your question, if my wind shield is up at break off, I'm still getting the hell out of there. You can track away using your legs and keep your hands on the wind shield. (if you notice on my tracks I can steer where I want to go with my legs)

Even Barb, with a broken collar bone tracked when it was time to track. It was only when she was in so much pain that she stopped, looked around and made sure she had clean air, that she deployed.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[crzjp20 0]

i had the same problem at first as well. One of the guys i jumped with caught it on video an we took a look at my body position and since then i have had a good flat track. major dearch and roll of sholders all that jazz.

helped me

--------------------------------------------------
Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage.

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

Dom, I'm not going to name names. I'm not sure if the person had a malfunction with his wind shield, he never said anything to me, but that's not to say it didn't happen.

John, to answer your question, if my wind shield is up at break off, I'm still getting the hell out of there. You can track away using your legs and keep your hands on the wind shield. (if you notice on my tracks I can steer where I want to go with my legs)

Even Barb, with a broken collar bone tracked when it was time to track. It was only when she was in so much pain that she stopped, looked around and made sure she had clean air, that she deployed.

Yes, that's what I thought. Last place I want to be on breakoff is hanging around by the formation messing with my stuff.

PS beautiful track, have you tried a BM suit yet? I just got one.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[flyangel2 2]

Quote

PS beautiful track, have you tried a BM suit yet? I just got one.

Thank you so much, that means so much to me coming from you. When I was a student, learning to track, I was sloppy. Then a really good skydiver told me that if I didn't develop a good track I was not only going to kill people around me, but myself. I started really working on it.

Bill Von had a BM suit on me when I visited Perris Valley last, but the weather moved it. He gave me all the ground instruction and went over everything I needed to know. Gee, he was starting to scare me. I wasn't really disappointed that the weather didn't allow me to go up. I'm kind of scared to put that suit back on. Maybe if there were some really good great BM people up there with me to keep me out of trouble, I'd try it.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

Quote

PS beautiful track, have you tried a BM suit yet? I just got one.

Thank you so much, that means so much to me coming from you. When I was a student, learning to track, I was sloppy. Then a really good skydiver told me that if I didn't develop a good track I was not only going to kill people around me, but myself. I started really working on it.

Bill Von had a BM suit on me when I visited Perris Valley last, but the weather moved it. He gave me all the ground instruction and went over everything I needed to know. Gee, he was starting to scare me. I wasn't really disappointed that the weather didn't allow me to go up. I'm kind of scared to put that suit back on. Maybe if there were some really good great BM people up there with me to keep me out of trouble, I'd try it.

Well, we skinny folks have a great advantage in that we get to be on the outside and track away into clean air. We control our own destiny. I feel bad for the poor buggers on the inside who turn to track and have to avoid the morons people in the outer wave who just drop down, or don't get away promptly.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.