Turns / Fall Rate Increase

[richardd 0]

Hi,

Im a fairly biggish chap (approx 100kg) but have a reasonable fall rate. Estimated around 125/130. I am quite wide and this probably creates an element of drag. I messed up a 4way in an attempt to achive my FS1. I tend to drop significantly low when attempting to turn for a point. I am still using old cat-8 techniques for turning ie banking the upper body. Perhaps this deflects a lot more air hence the drop. I am capable of performing knee turns and wear booties. Would knee turns be the better option?

I appreciate the difference between the two methods of initiating a turn but figure that dropping a shoulder to turn maybe the contributing factor to the increase in fall rate and hence losing the formation.

I was instructed that i dont always maintain eye contact and hence look for the gripper. This could be a factor too.

Any opinions? I appreciate this is a little subjective but any discussion would be useful.

Regards
Richard

[AggieDave 6]

More of a centerpoint turn would be your best bet, also you might find that a quick pop after dropping the point for your turn might help with your altitude loss. It sounds like you'd be up and down, but you basically stay on level when doing this.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Remster 24]

By definition, you are deflecting air when turning and will gain speed if you do nothing else. The more aggressive your turn, the more air you will loose. You need to anticipate that.

You say a reasonable speed of 125/130? Thats really fast these days.

By the way, I'm 1m88 (6'2) and 100kg.

Edit: yes, eye contact and proximity control (both vertical and horizontal) are the key.

Remster

[richardd 0]

Ok. I will attempt to improve the eye contact situation! Im not quite sure whats meant by 'popping' after a point. Do you mean de-arching and slowing fall rate? Its possible my turns are too aggressive and fast. Should get it cracked. Keep on practicing!

Managed to drift underneath a member of the 4way last time stealing his air!! and causing more confusion. Still had fun!! Its a steep learning curve!!

Rich

[larsrulz 0]

Quote

Im not quite sure whats meant by 'popping' after a point. Do you mean de-arching and slowing fall rate?

That is what he means. When you are docked in a four way, that group floats as the whole has increased drag over the parts. When you release grips, your base fall rate is faster than the four way is falling. If you don't "pop up," then you'll fall low. You need to consciously think before you release each grip to dearch a bit. Eventually this will become second nature. I used to have this same problem of falling out, but now I don't need to think about it, and rarely fall low. Eventually you'll also get to the point that even if you do fall low, you can pop right back up without much loss of altitude.

Quote

Still had fun!! Its a steep learning curve!!

As long as you're having fun, then it doesn't much matter, right?

I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

[AggieDave 6]

Good explaination.

Basically what I was telling you is something that I have to do. I'm roughly 280-285lbs out the door (weightlifter/beer drinker body build) and I have to do this to keep from sinking on just about every sort of RW jump I'm on.

Richard, you might want to look into getting some Skydive University coaching to really learn how to control your body. Its some of the best non-tunnel coaching you can get!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Samurai136 0]

4-way and fallrate is a team effort. It is not only you it is the team. Sometimes you end up low after a turn. So it's not consistent 'body position' issue; it doesn't happen all the time. It is the group's job to decide they want to match fall rates.

If you are significantly bigger they may all need to wear weights. 4-way National and World champions wear weight to match fall rates. I would recommend making leg/knee turns. Arms are your grip takers and should be in a ready grip taking position.

How low do you sink in a turn before you stop sinking out? Do you sink out quickly or slowly? when you stop sinking you've actually matched the groups fall rate.
My guess is that you have slightly less focus on 'fallrate/ bodyposition' when you are working on making a good turn. This is normal. Eye contact will help because it keeps your focus on the group and unnconsciously on matching fallrate. unless you are facing out frrom the center of the formation everyone should be looking at the center point of the formation. You will have eye contact with someone or you'll see who's not making eye contact....

Keep at it!
Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[Peterkn 17]

Hi Richard, who were the other 3 people on the 4-way ?
It's difficult to know exactly how good/bad you are doing unless you're jumping with people who are reliable and consistent.
The other issue is the "dress for success" factor. If you're going low on 4-ways it's likely you're going to struggle on anything larger. Maybe a slower jumpsuit is need ?

I'm 6' & 220+ lbs and eventually realised that it's easier to wear a larger suit and arch every now and again, than to spend all my time de-arching and going low.

I'm a Langar jumper too, and if you want to borrow a suit or need someone to jump with please let me know.

Cheers,

Pete Knight

[richardd 0]

Hi, Yes the WARP jump was a coached jump at peterborough. I am very appreciative of anyone who volunteers into a 4way with me. I have a lot to learn. Im sure i was jumping with competant reasonably fast fallers. This included experienced guys who all did their own bit. I clearly rocket low at the slightest manoevre.

The formation was flying great when we were in a star. All was fine until i turn. This has been a common problem for me but only recently pointed out.

It does seem that im spending my recent jumps dealing with going low, recovering ground and not making the points which in principal should be easy enough.

Thanks for the offer. Any help is appreciated.

Regards
Richard

[richardd 0]

Thnaks. theres some encouraging stuff. It is starting to dawn on me that i am falling rather quick and this may be an issue.

Rich

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

Quote

Im not quite sure whats meant by 'popping' after a point. Do you mean de-arching and slowing fall rate?

That is what he means. When you are docked in a four way, that group floats as the whole has increased drag over the parts. When you release grips, your base fall rate is faster than the four way is falling. If you don't "pop up," then you'll fall low. You need to consciously think before you release each grip to dearch a bit.

Your explanation would apply to everyone in the 4-way, so why would anyone sink out unless the other three maintained grips in a block move?

What you said is certainly true in bigger ways where the center has a tendency to float.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Remster 24]

Quote

Arms are your grip takers and should be in a ready grip taking position.

Sorry man, I think this recommendation is just awfull for a begining jumper at 60 jumps. Thats a sure way to make him focus on the grip and forget about where to go. I can imagine it now:

Arms ready to grip, arms ready to grip, arms ready to grip.... What do you think he will do: fly to slot, or fly the grip?

Remster

[Samurai136 0]

Whatever.

It goes with the eye contact conditioning and other RW skills that get drilled in the tunnel. It's a quick skill to learn and doesn't require you 'think about it' all the time. He won't be 'grip focused'. If you are making eye contact and your hands are not in your peripheral vision they should be. Eye contact will allow any jumper to fly right to their slot and then pick up grips.

Sorry dude, you are wrong. It all depends on the skydiver. 60 jumps is not too early to start learning good habits for 4-way or any RW sequential...

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[rehmwa 2]

Ken - Remster isn't a big mantis fan (nor enemy either, tho). And the poster may be thinking 'fun' jumps, so weights on the others might not be a great thing for him to request. However, I agree that leg turns gives less to think about and then good fall rate control is just something learned - even better in the tunnel.

Jason left me a MB sticker in my locker with the weights from the last meet. I'm keeping it , it might be worth something someday when you guys are all famous.

As far as mantis is concerned, the sooner the better once the student is off student statis. (single example, so grain of salt here). We took a guy with 14 jumps to the tunnel last April. He's been working and not jumping much since. Sunday he did 15 points on a 4-way from 12.5 - that's a pretty good case example for mantis and tunnel training.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Remster 24]

Quote

It goes with the eye contact conditioning and other RW skills that get drilled in the tunnel

Ahhh... yes... I forgot... the tunnel is where people learn to skydive

Remster

[SuZQflies 0]

Quote

Quote

It goes with the eye contact conditioning and other RW skills that get drilled in the tunnel

Ahhh... yes... I forgot... the tunnel is where people learn to skydive

I agree 1000%. You get a real sense of position and degree of control with the benefit of feedback during the "freefall". Well worth the money! And best time is as a newbie...b-4 you have too many bad habits!

Dr. "Q" PMS#151Shugah,Shugah,How'd Ya Git So Fly?

[Remster 24]

Psst... that was sarcasm.

Yes the tunnel is a great tool, but for my money, as a recreational jumper, I'd rather get more then 5-10 feet of altitude...

For heaven's sake: the guy went low. He's a bighish guy. Its normal. Thats how you learn. Go back to basics people....

How the hell were we ever able to learn to skydive without tunnels!


(PS: I guess I'm not a tunnel fan either )

Remster

[DanG 1]

Quote

I would recommend making leg/knee turns. Arms are your grip takers and should be in a ready grip taking position.

I would recommend learning center point turns. Yes, you take grips with your arms, but unless you are doing piece moves, you should not be turning and taking grips at the same time. You should stop a turn before grips are taken. With this in mind, using both legs and arms to turn is preferable.

Arms only turning limits you greatly. I would seek out some local 4-way guys or gals and get them to work with you on some simple fallrate and center point turn drills.

- Dan G

[Pendragon 1]

Try to keep eye contact for as long as possible. I bet you "fell out" of the formation on your outward facing move?

I got my FS1 (WARP 10) recently on this dive:

Meeker exit - open accordian - phalyanx - star.

So my "outward" facing move was the open accordian to phalyanx; the advantage of this is that if the 2 making the transition rotate in opposite directions, then you effectively have 2 people you can look at, making it easier to keep on the same level without sideslipping/backsliding away...

Don't get depressed about it; you're only on jump 60something. Secondly, I've been informed (and have personally seen evidence for!) that on a scrambles meet (so 4-way teams of mixed ability just thrown together for the benefit of a fun competition) the average # points turned is 2.

Kinda puts it into perspective?

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

With this in mind, using both legs and arms to turn is preferable.

It's not unusual in the first couple tunnel camps (or in non-tunnel formal training for mantis) to take the arms out completely while teaching center point turns (completely static upper body). Then the arms (tiny input relative to legs, but necessary) are added in later camps. So the static arms comment from Samurai is appropriate for the original poster's experience level. ie, get them to work the knees correctly first and add in the refinements later.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants