Mad47 0 #1 June 3, 2003 Hello everybody! I plan to start a 4-way RW team next season and now try to learn as much as possible about team dynamics and organization staff. After consulting with several experienced RW folks, I realized that one of the most difficult issues is finding a good cameraman. Obviously there are two extreme cases: 1) very experienced cameraman who charges a good price for the good consistent videos 2) a beginner who wants to learn or improve camera flying skills and therefore charging less or not charging at all. Both have some advantages and disadvantages and we are not sure what would be an ideal case for new team planning to make around 200 training jumps per season. I would really appreciate some advice from DZ.com people who currently jump or train RW teams. Thanks in advance! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #2 June 3, 2003 I don't know if you know too much about the camera flyers job or responsibilities yet, but awhile back I wrote a piece for beginning camera flyers, that also is pretty useful information for the rest of the team as well -- especially a team that's never worked with a camera flyer before. You can find it HERE.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mad47 0 #3 June 3, 2003 Excellent article. Thanks a lot! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Albatross 0 #4 June 4, 2003 Let me put my 2-cents in from the perspective of a team member. The camera person is a social team member and a critical part of your group. You will spend alot of time with thtis person and need to like them or at the least get along. However, despite what the rules say the camera flier is not a true team member. By that I mean, they are not paying for jumps, do not have to fly the slot, and done have the input into many team decisions the same way that the others do. Ideally you have some one like Quade: Great to hang with, nice guy, really smart, kick ass camera flier, does his job and stays out of the way. The only time that we hear from him is the occational "I just glad to be here." He is like having a friend around to joke with, he never causes any issues or has any problems. The only way that he could be any better as a camera flier is if he could fill in as an alternate or he payed his own way As for the experience level of your camera flier, I think that it depends on your level of seriousness. If this is fun endevour and you are not highly competitive, get a new camera flier and keep the $$ and let them learn. If you are competative get someone who is good becuase without good video it is tough to learn and debeif anything.Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #5 June 4, 2003 One more thing . . . Some people see the camera flyer as a team mate, some people see the camera flyer as a hired gun. Try to find somebody that can be a little of both, shows up on-time and you don't have to worry about. Find somebody who's personality you like -- you're going to be spending a lot of time together in tight quarters.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #6 June 4, 2003 Aw-shucks . . . Quote The only way that he could be any better as a camera flier is if he could fill in as an alternate . . . Alternate? You mean like - touch people and stuff? Y'all gotta be kiddin'.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mad47 0 #7 June 4, 2003 Thanks again! Anybody else? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 4 #8 June 4, 2003 I'll throw in a bit of a different perspective. A long time ago I was on a very successful 4-way team. These days I'm on a casual one. I think that while video is good, it isn't as important as just getting 4 people together and making a bunch of skydives. Get occasional video, let new camera flyers jump with you (safety always being a consideration), but don't worry too early about putting a video person there with you. Just jump. Go ahead. Let the flames begin. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mad47 0 #9 June 4, 2003 I do not mean to show any disrespect (especially after looking at your profile) but your post surprised me a little. I have been jumping with very new 8-way team (coached by very experienced and talented people) since January. I don think we would make so much progress after only several training camps if we did not have great coaching combined with video on absolutely every jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #10 June 4, 2003 Paul, That was a very informative article and I don't fly camera. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
btucker 0 #11 June 4, 2003 Quote Some people see the camera flyer as a team mate, some people see the camera flyer as a hired gun. Try to find somebody that can be a little of both, shows up on-time and you don't have to worry about. Find somebody who's personality you like -- you're going to be spending a lot of time together in tight quarters. spot on! Blues Benno Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 4 #12 June 4, 2003 Let me clarify my view a bit. Video is good, coaching is good, two videos would be better, as would two coaches, as would more jumps, as would jumping every day..... Just remember, we jump because it is fun, and agonizing about whether or not we have a coach, or the right coach, or video, or the right video moves the emphasis into the wrong place. The single most important thing is the 4 people who do the skydive. Their dynamics, personality and otherwise, are far and above the most critical aspect to the success of the team effort. Once again I'll say it. Just skydive, and let the other stuff happen when and how it can. Don't postpone skydiving because you haven't got the video or coach worked out. You will still improve. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #14 June 5, 2003 QuoteLet me clarify my view a bit. Video is good, coaching is good, two videos would be better, as would two coaches, as would more jumps, as would jumping every day..... Just remember, we jump because it is fun, and agonizing about whether or not we have a coach, or the right coach, or video, or the right video moves the emphasis into the wrong place. The single most important thing is the 4 people who do the skydive. Their dynamics, personality and otherwise, are far and above the most critical aspect to the success of the team effort. Once again I'll say it. Just skydive, and let the other stuff happen when and how it can. Don't postpone skydiving because you haven't got the video or coach worked out. You will still improve. yes you will improve, but it can also lead to finger pointing and accusations, too. you will learn faster with video (good video) and someone who can help debrief. video doesn't lie. people do Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rdutch 0 #15 June 5, 2003 QuoteQuoteyes you will improve, but it can also lead to finger pointing and accusations, too. you will learn faster with video (good video) and someone who can help debrief. video doesn't lie. people do And in competition a good cameraman helps a LOT! Nothing sucks worse than training a whole year, only to loose because of your cameraman messing up! Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites weid14 0 #16 June 6, 2003 QuoteQuoteQuoteyes you will improve, but it can also lead to finger pointing and accusations, too. you will learn faster with video (good video) and someone who can help debrief. video doesn't lie. people do And in competition a good cameraman helps a LOT! Nothing sucks worse than training a whole year, only to loose because of your cameraman messing up! ouch...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ltdiver 3 #17 June 6, 2003 QuoteAnd in competition a good cameraman helps a LOT! Nothing sucks worse than training a whole year, only to loose because of your cameraman messing up! Also helps if the team knows how to exit and fly. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 3 #18 June 6, 2003 Ouch. That's the camera flyers problem though. Now, if the team has exit issues AND demands on how the camera flyer is going to fly it, then that could cause a real problem, but no matter how the team exits -- even a horribly timed exit -- it's the camera flyer's job to not NJ. Ya don't get extra points for being "pretty" but you can definately cause an NJ trying.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ltdiver 3 #19 June 6, 2003 Quotebut no matter how the team exits -- even a horribly timed exit -- it's the camera flyer's job to not NJ. Haven't had an NJ in a competition yet. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #20 June 6, 2003 OK, what is a NJ? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ltdiver 3 #21 June 6, 2003 QuoteOK, what is a NJ? Sparky Not Judgeable Quote from the Skydiver's Competition Manual: Page 60 Section 5.1.11:E:3. "Formations, inters or total separations not judgeable due to factors not related to meterological conditions or the videographer's equipment." In other words, not having the grips in view for each and every point. This also includes not showing the blocks and inters in their entirety. If someone flies out of the frame during a block, then you're screwed. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rdutch 0 #22 June 6, 2003 [reply ouch...... Dave, that wasn't personal, I as a cameraman, can understand the importance of performing to the best of my ability. Just like a PT (Point turner) every camera jump is a training jump, and the more training jumps you have the better you get. I was just stating to the open DZ.com community, if you have a team that performs well, you need a cameraman that does the same or you both loose, Just a competition standard,as for training, Majik is a good example thier cameraman never competed with them one time, its hard to turn down free video. Not to say their cameraman didnt get it in the 1000 jumps he did with them, he is pretty good, just a Majik level team need's a majik level cameraman. Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
weid14 0 #16 June 6, 2003 QuoteQuoteQuoteyes you will improve, but it can also lead to finger pointing and accusations, too. you will learn faster with video (good video) and someone who can help debrief. video doesn't lie. people do And in competition a good cameraman helps a LOT! Nothing sucks worse than training a whole year, only to loose because of your cameraman messing up! ouch...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ltdiver 3 #17 June 6, 2003 QuoteAnd in competition a good cameraman helps a LOT! Nothing sucks worse than training a whole year, only to loose because of your cameraman messing up! Also helps if the team knows how to exit and fly. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quade 3 #18 June 6, 2003 Ouch. That's the camera flyers problem though. Now, if the team has exit issues AND demands on how the camera flyer is going to fly it, then that could cause a real problem, but no matter how the team exits -- even a horribly timed exit -- it's the camera flyer's job to not NJ. Ya don't get extra points for being "pretty" but you can definately cause an NJ trying.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ltdiver 3 #19 June 6, 2003 Quotebut no matter how the team exits -- even a horribly timed exit -- it's the camera flyer's job to not NJ. Haven't had an NJ in a competition yet. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #20 June 6, 2003 OK, what is a NJ? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ltdiver 3 #21 June 6, 2003 QuoteOK, what is a NJ? Sparky Not Judgeable Quote from the Skydiver's Competition Manual: Page 60 Section 5.1.11:E:3. "Formations, inters or total separations not judgeable due to factors not related to meterological conditions or the videographer's equipment." In other words, not having the grips in view for each and every point. This also includes not showing the blocks and inters in their entirety. If someone flies out of the frame during a block, then you're screwed. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rdutch 0 #22 June 6, 2003 [reply ouch...... Dave, that wasn't personal, I as a cameraman, can understand the importance of performing to the best of my ability. Just like a PT (Point turner) every camera jump is a training jump, and the more training jumps you have the better you get. I was just stating to the open DZ.com community, if you have a team that performs well, you need a cameraman that does the same or you both loose, Just a competition standard,as for training, Majik is a good example thier cameraman never competed with them one time, its hard to turn down free video. Not to say their cameraman didnt get it in the 1000 jumps he did with them, he is pretty good, just a Majik level team need's a majik level cameraman. Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #17 June 6, 2003 QuoteAnd in competition a good cameraman helps a LOT! Nothing sucks worse than training a whole year, only to loose because of your cameraman messing up! Also helps if the team knows how to exit and fly. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #18 June 6, 2003 Ouch. That's the camera flyers problem though. Now, if the team has exit issues AND demands on how the camera flyer is going to fly it, then that could cause a real problem, but no matter how the team exits -- even a horribly timed exit -- it's the camera flyer's job to not NJ. Ya don't get extra points for being "pretty" but you can definately cause an NJ trying.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #19 June 6, 2003 Quotebut no matter how the team exits -- even a horribly timed exit -- it's the camera flyer's job to not NJ. Haven't had an NJ in a competition yet. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #20 June 6, 2003 OK, what is a NJ? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #21 June 6, 2003 QuoteOK, what is a NJ? Sparky Not Judgeable Quote from the Skydiver's Competition Manual: Page 60 Section 5.1.11:E:3. "Formations, inters or total separations not judgeable due to factors not related to meterological conditions or the videographer's equipment." In other words, not having the grips in view for each and every point. This also includes not showing the blocks and inters in their entirety. If someone flies out of the frame during a block, then you're screwed. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rdutch 0 #22 June 6, 2003 [reply ouch...... Dave, that wasn't personal, I as a cameraman, can understand the importance of performing to the best of my ability. Just like a PT (Point turner) every camera jump is a training jump, and the more training jumps you have the better you get. I was just stating to the open DZ.com community, if you have a team that performs well, you need a cameraman that does the same or you both loose, Just a competition standard,as for training, Majik is a good example thier cameraman never competed with them one time, its hard to turn down free video. Not to say their cameraman didnt get it in the 1000 jumps he did with them, he is pretty good, just a Majik level team need's a majik level cameraman. Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
