TrashTash 0 #1 January 14, 2003 Hi Rob, in another thread (http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=346569;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread) i have ridden that the old F-111-Tandems are "malfunction machines". Ist this a problem of F111 canopies generally or just a problem of tandems? And another question to you: I want to buy a first canopy which is very opening safe, packs & fly easy and forgivingly and offers really soft on-heading openings. Which canopy do you recommend? Do you know more about the Paratec Super 7 (Zero-P 7 cell)? Or dou you recommend Parachutes de France Electra (Zero-P/F111 mixed). Thanks 4 answer! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #2 January 14, 2003 quote: QuoteHi Rob, the old F-111-Tandems are "malfunction machines". Ist this a problem of F111 canopies generally or just a problem of tandems?" end qoute. This is not a fabric-specific problem, rather it is a question of which generation of canopies you are referring to. First generation F-111 tandem canopies were malfunction machines because they tried to design one canopy to do everything: open at terminal and low speed. For example, Strong F-111 mains and reserves are cut from the same patterns, with only minor differences in lines and reinforcing tapes. In order to satisfy the low speed opening requirements for reserves, they ended up with mains that opened painfully! Mind you this was before they perfected drogues and were still doing hop-and-pops from 5,000! F-111 patterns are not readily transferrable to ZP fabric. For example, Strong tried building 425 mains with Zero P fabric cut from the F-111 patterns, but they opened so hard and tore so readily that Strong quickly scrapped that project and switched to copying Parachutes de France's Blue Track tandem mains. The resultant SET 400 is a decent canopy. The Relative Workshop went through the same series of problems with PD-360 canopies. PD-360s were the worst tandem main canopies I ever jumped, but RWS still uses them as reserves. In comparison, you will hear the same complaints about solo canopies designed in the same time frame (i.e. Precision Falcon). quote " And another question to you: I want to buy a first canopy which is very opening safe, packs & fly easy and forgivingly and offers really soft on-heading openings. Which canopy do you recommend? Do you know more about the Paratec Super 7 (Zero-P 7 cell)? Or do you recommend Parachutes de France Electra (Zero-P/F111 mixed)." end quote. Sorry, but I have been out of touch with the European market ever since Parachutes de France decided not to compete on the American market. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Frogger 0 #3 January 14, 2003 Hi Rob, I'm curious exactly what you mean about the Falcon canopy. Prone to malfunction, maybe? Or perhaps you mean it opens unacceptably hard. Did the Falcon go through subsequent design changes After the time period you refer to? I've never heard this before. If I misunderstood, could you please clarify? Thanks in advance, Frogger B25429 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TrashTash 0 #4 January 14, 2003 Thanks. And the Nitro(n)? Or which american canopies do you recommend? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #5 January 14, 2003 The main problem with Falcons is that they open hard. The hard openings are part of the TSO requirements for reserves. Remember that Falcons are one of the few canopies sold as both mains and reserves. Falcons opened harder than many of the mains of their generation and harder than all modern mains. While it is possible to soften Falcon openings with bigger sliders and careful packing, few skydivers have the patience to pack that neatly, so Falcons never sold well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #6 January 14, 2003 QuoteRemember that Falcons are one of the few canopies sold as both mains and reserves. IIRC the Falcon is a nine cell. I've never seen one used as a reserve. I think the Raven/Super Raven is the canopy that could be used as a main or as a reserve. Falcons do open hard. I remember rolling the nose damn near to the B lines to slow the opening enough for a friend who was jumping camera... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites indyz 1 #7 January 14, 2003 QuoteIIRC the Falcon is a nine cell. I've never seen one used as a reserve. I think the Raven/Super Raven is the canopy that could be used as a main or as a reserve. I didn't think there were any 9-cell reserves, but apparently the Falcon was certified to TSO-C23c in 1988. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 0 #8 January 14, 2003 Quote IIRC the Falcon is a nine cell. I've never seen one used as a reserve. Falcons do open hard. I remember rolling the nose damn near to the B lines to slow the opening enough for a friend who was jumping camera... I've only seen and packed one Falcon as a reserve. It was strange packing a nine cell reserve into a sport rig. Falcons DEFINATELY opened hard. I did learn pretty quickly how to slow them down even when they were new. I'm very thankful those packing methods are not needed for today's parachutes. My first parachute was a falcon... Dacron lines helped. Once they had some jumps on them (if you weren't completely hammered by the openings when you first got it) The openings became very reasonable TimMy grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,401 #9 January 14, 2003 >I didn't think there were any 9-cell reserves . . . The Mighty Mak and the Strong 425 are both nine cell reserves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Frogger 0 #10 January 15, 2003 Hi Rob, Thanks for the speedy reply! I'm a 100 jump wonder, and about 1/2 my total jumps are on my Falcon 175. I guess you could say the openings are "firm", but I've NEVER been hammered by it. It does have Dacron lines as you mentioned, and that probably helps. Also, I flat pack it pretty carefully and roll the nose to just the "A" lines. That's not cuz I'm scared of getting whacked, just the way I do things. Actually, I love my canopy and was concerned when I thought you meant it was prone to malfunction. I guess I'll just keep on jumping my hot pink Falcon! (you sapps can kiss my butt! :) Thanks, Frogger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shivon 0 #11 April 1, 2004 Regards the Falcon. Rob and co. - were any packing techniques generally used to soften up the openings? (without mods like a bigger slider). Role the crap out of the nose? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites slotperfect 7 #12 April 1, 2004 QuotePD-360s were the worst tandem main canopies I ever jumped, but RWS still uses them as reserves. Now there's a comforting thought! I'll have to make a point not to use one! Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jerry81 10 #13 April 1, 2004 QuoteRegards the Falcon. Rob and co. - were any packing techniques generally used to soften up the openings? (without mods like a bigger slider). Role the crap out of the nose? I put about 100 jumps on a 215 Falcon, a third of them with a camera. What worked for me was pushing each slider grommet up to the stops so tight that the slider got stuck momentarily on opening. So I was actually inducing a slider hangup on each opening, which, I suppose, is potentially dangerous, but I never experienced anything that some riser pumping wouldn't fix and it was a small price to pay for not having a sore neck and bruised thighs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shivon 0 #14 April 1, 2004 QuoteI put about 100 jumps on a 215 Falcon, a third of them with a camera....What worked for me was pushing each slider grommet up to the stops so tight that the slider got stuck momentarily on opening....it was a small price to pay for not having a sore neck and bruised thighs. And that's where I'm going with this - I want to use a old Falcon 175 in a spare rig for camera work. I've added a fair bit of weight up top recently, and soft = goooooood Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #15 April 1, 2004 QuoteI want to use a old Falcon 175 in a spare rig for camera work. Save your neck. Don't use any all F111 9 cell for camera work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #16 April 1, 2004 I don't know a lot about f-111 vs ZP other than ZP lasts longer and is harder to pack... why wouldn't you use F-111 for jumping camera? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #17 April 1, 2004 Quotewhy wouldn't you use F-111 for jumping camera? Because most all F111 nine cell rectangular main canopies - ie the mains of yesterday - open much faster than all zp nine cell "semi elliptical" canopies - ie the mains of today. Whether this is a function of the design differences or of the fabric differences I don't know. I do know that to get acceptably slow openings for a friend of mine who jumped camera with his Falcon I would have to roll the nose beyond the A lines and keep tight control of the nose throughout the rest of the pack job. Same thing to get slow openings out of the PD170 my ex owned. Worn out all F111 mains seemed to open acceptably slow without too much packing finesse at the expense of a good flare. I would only recommend an all F111 main of any vintage, shape or # of cells to someone who absolutely cannot afford to buy a used modern zp main canopy, and I would never recommend one to someone who plans to put a camera on their head - imho the openings on today's canopies are that much better. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #18 April 1, 2004 cool! Thanks much for the info! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beej 0 #19 April 1, 2004 my first canopy was a new falcon 235. I never actually witnessed it opening..every time i looked up, it was open already. Of the 37 jumps i did on it before selling, id say 5 of those openings were near or at the 'blackout' level. Because i was just off newbie status when i jumped it, i actually assumed that these openings were just an accepted part of the sport and were normal - until i demo'd a safire 190....and i cannot describe the sense of euphoria during its opening stage...a different world completely. ---------------------------------------------------- If the shit fits - wear it (blues brothers)-- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masher 1 #20 April 2, 2004 I've done maybe 10 jumps on a Falcon 195. Didn't have any problems with it. Just a normal flat pack. That said, the dutch girl complained of hard openings on it, so we changed how we packed it, and it was fine. Then someone else took it for a h'n'p, after she'd packed it :) took forever to open :p-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shivon 0 #21 April 2, 2004 I figure if I roll the nose pretty deeply, it should be ok. I'd be quite comfortable with 1000 ft of snivel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beej 0 #22 April 2, 2004 tried that..didnt work at all. What did work tho (said the guy who bought it from me) was changing microlines to dacron, and a big ass slider. ---------------------------------------------------- If the shit fits - wear it (blues brothers)-- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #23 April 4, 2004 I've had a couple of old Falcons and still jump one for a backup rig. And yes, they do seem to open pretty hard. I tried jumping a heavier camera helmet with it twice and strained the hell out of my neck. I'm just wondering how a psycho pack might work with an old Falcon. I guess I'll have to experiment and see. If nothing else it might pack up a little easier, since it's a very tight container and bag. At any rate, no more camera jumps with it until the openings improve. Thanks for the info. Nobody ever told me Falcons were hard opening, and I just figured I must be gettin old and frail....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tbrown 26 #24 April 4, 2004 If you want a recommendation for a canopy to buy, I'd have to say either a Spectre or a Sabre2. You won't find many/any used Sabre2's on the market - just check the classifieds here at dropzone.com - I haven't found one yet & I take that as a sign of canopy that its owners like. You will find plenty of Spectres, in all sizes if you're patient, because a lot of Spectre owners move on to Stillettos and the like. Both canopies have very nice openings - the Spectre especially so. But on your first snivelly spectre opening, please take a deep breath and repeat after me - "they said it would snivel like this". Then when it finally opens, you'll say, "WOW - that was NICE!". Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #25 April 4, 2004 Bought my sabre2 used from the dz.com classifieds. Did my first 99 jumps on F111 canopies. Didn't find out what a soft opening was until I demoed a sabre2 on my 100th. My PD 9 cell doesn't usually open hard, but it definitely doesn't snivel either. Spectre openings scared the crap outta me... going from no snivel to a long snivel was a big change. The Sabre2 falls somewhere in between. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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Frogger 0 #3 January 14, 2003 Hi Rob, I'm curious exactly what you mean about the Falcon canopy. Prone to malfunction, maybe? Or perhaps you mean it opens unacceptably hard. Did the Falcon go through subsequent design changes After the time period you refer to? I've never heard this before. If I misunderstood, could you please clarify? Thanks in advance, Frogger B25429 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrashTash 0 #4 January 14, 2003 Thanks. And the Nitro(n)? Or which american canopies do you recommend? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #5 January 14, 2003 The main problem with Falcons is that they open hard. The hard openings are part of the TSO requirements for reserves. Remember that Falcons are one of the few canopies sold as both mains and reserves. Falcons opened harder than many of the mains of their generation and harder than all modern mains. While it is possible to soften Falcon openings with bigger sliders and careful packing, few skydivers have the patience to pack that neatly, so Falcons never sold well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #6 January 14, 2003 QuoteRemember that Falcons are one of the few canopies sold as both mains and reserves. IIRC the Falcon is a nine cell. I've never seen one used as a reserve. I think the Raven/Super Raven is the canopy that could be used as a main or as a reserve. Falcons do open hard. I remember rolling the nose damn near to the B lines to slow the opening enough for a friend who was jumping camera... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
indyz 1 #7 January 14, 2003 QuoteIIRC the Falcon is a nine cell. I've never seen one used as a reserve. I think the Raven/Super Raven is the canopy that could be used as a main or as a reserve. I didn't think there were any 9-cell reserves, but apparently the Falcon was certified to TSO-C23c in 1988. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #8 January 14, 2003 Quote IIRC the Falcon is a nine cell. I've never seen one used as a reserve. Falcons do open hard. I remember rolling the nose damn near to the B lines to slow the opening enough for a friend who was jumping camera... I've only seen and packed one Falcon as a reserve. It was strange packing a nine cell reserve into a sport rig. Falcons DEFINATELY opened hard. I did learn pretty quickly how to slow them down even when they were new. I'm very thankful those packing methods are not needed for today's parachutes. My first parachute was a falcon... Dacron lines helped. Once they had some jumps on them (if you weren't completely hammered by the openings when you first got it) The openings became very reasonable TimMy grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,401 #9 January 14, 2003 >I didn't think there were any 9-cell reserves . . . The Mighty Mak and the Strong 425 are both nine cell reserves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frogger 0 #10 January 15, 2003 Hi Rob, Thanks for the speedy reply! I'm a 100 jump wonder, and about 1/2 my total jumps are on my Falcon 175. I guess you could say the openings are "firm", but I've NEVER been hammered by it. It does have Dacron lines as you mentioned, and that probably helps. Also, I flat pack it pretty carefully and roll the nose to just the "A" lines. That's not cuz I'm scared of getting whacked, just the way I do things. Actually, I love my canopy and was concerned when I thought you meant it was prone to malfunction. I guess I'll just keep on jumping my hot pink Falcon! (you sapps can kiss my butt! :) Thanks, Frogger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shivon 0 #11 April 1, 2004 Regards the Falcon. Rob and co. - were any packing techniques generally used to soften up the openings? (without mods like a bigger slider). Role the crap out of the nose? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #12 April 1, 2004 QuotePD-360s were the worst tandem main canopies I ever jumped, but RWS still uses them as reserves. Now there's a comforting thought! I'll have to make a point not to use one! Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerry81 10 #13 April 1, 2004 QuoteRegards the Falcon. Rob and co. - were any packing techniques generally used to soften up the openings? (without mods like a bigger slider). Role the crap out of the nose? I put about 100 jumps on a 215 Falcon, a third of them with a camera. What worked for me was pushing each slider grommet up to the stops so tight that the slider got stuck momentarily on opening. So I was actually inducing a slider hangup on each opening, which, I suppose, is potentially dangerous, but I never experienced anything that some riser pumping wouldn't fix and it was a small price to pay for not having a sore neck and bruised thighs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shivon 0 #14 April 1, 2004 QuoteI put about 100 jumps on a 215 Falcon, a third of them with a camera....What worked for me was pushing each slider grommet up to the stops so tight that the slider got stuck momentarily on opening....it was a small price to pay for not having a sore neck and bruised thighs. And that's where I'm going with this - I want to use a old Falcon 175 in a spare rig for camera work. I've added a fair bit of weight up top recently, and soft = goooooood Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #15 April 1, 2004 QuoteI want to use a old Falcon 175 in a spare rig for camera work. Save your neck. Don't use any all F111 9 cell for camera work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #16 April 1, 2004 I don't know a lot about f-111 vs ZP other than ZP lasts longer and is harder to pack... why wouldn't you use F-111 for jumping camera? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #17 April 1, 2004 Quotewhy wouldn't you use F-111 for jumping camera? Because most all F111 nine cell rectangular main canopies - ie the mains of yesterday - open much faster than all zp nine cell "semi elliptical" canopies - ie the mains of today. Whether this is a function of the design differences or of the fabric differences I don't know. I do know that to get acceptably slow openings for a friend of mine who jumped camera with his Falcon I would have to roll the nose beyond the A lines and keep tight control of the nose throughout the rest of the pack job. Same thing to get slow openings out of the PD170 my ex owned. Worn out all F111 mains seemed to open acceptably slow without too much packing finesse at the expense of a good flare. I would only recommend an all F111 main of any vintage, shape or # of cells to someone who absolutely cannot afford to buy a used modern zp main canopy, and I would never recommend one to someone who plans to put a camera on their head - imho the openings on today's canopies are that much better. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #18 April 1, 2004 cool! Thanks much for the info! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beej 0 #19 April 1, 2004 my first canopy was a new falcon 235. I never actually witnessed it opening..every time i looked up, it was open already. Of the 37 jumps i did on it before selling, id say 5 of those openings were near or at the 'blackout' level. Because i was just off newbie status when i jumped it, i actually assumed that these openings were just an accepted part of the sport and were normal - until i demo'd a safire 190....and i cannot describe the sense of euphoria during its opening stage...a different world completely. ---------------------------------------------------- If the shit fits - wear it (blues brothers)-- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #20 April 2, 2004 I've done maybe 10 jumps on a Falcon 195. Didn't have any problems with it. Just a normal flat pack. That said, the dutch girl complained of hard openings on it, so we changed how we packed it, and it was fine. Then someone else took it for a h'n'p, after she'd packed it :) took forever to open :p-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shivon 0 #21 April 2, 2004 I figure if I roll the nose pretty deeply, it should be ok. I'd be quite comfortable with 1000 ft of snivel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beej 0 #22 April 2, 2004 tried that..didnt work at all. What did work tho (said the guy who bought it from me) was changing microlines to dacron, and a big ass slider. ---------------------------------------------------- If the shit fits - wear it (blues brothers)-- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #23 April 4, 2004 I've had a couple of old Falcons and still jump one for a backup rig. And yes, they do seem to open pretty hard. I tried jumping a heavier camera helmet with it twice and strained the hell out of my neck. I'm just wondering how a psycho pack might work with an old Falcon. I guess I'll have to experiment and see. If nothing else it might pack up a little easier, since it's a very tight container and bag. At any rate, no more camera jumps with it until the openings improve. Thanks for the info. Nobody ever told me Falcons were hard opening, and I just figured I must be gettin old and frail....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #24 April 4, 2004 If you want a recommendation for a canopy to buy, I'd have to say either a Spectre or a Sabre2. You won't find many/any used Sabre2's on the market - just check the classifieds here at dropzone.com - I haven't found one yet & I take that as a sign of canopy that its owners like. You will find plenty of Spectres, in all sizes if you're patient, because a lot of Spectre owners move on to Stillettos and the like. Both canopies have very nice openings - the Spectre especially so. But on your first snivelly spectre opening, please take a deep breath and repeat after me - "they said it would snivel like this". Then when it finally opens, you'll say, "WOW - that was NICE!". Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #25 April 4, 2004 Bought my sabre2 used from the dz.com classifieds. Did my first 99 jumps on F111 canopies. Didn't find out what a soft opening was until I demoed a sabre2 on my 100th. My PD 9 cell doesn't usually open hard, but it definitely doesn't snivel either. Spectre openings scared the crap outta me... going from no snivel to a long snivel was a big change. The Sabre2 falls somewhere in between. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
