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How is speedriding any different from...

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The use of a skydiving canopy in perfect strong headwind conditions is great, the problem is when people hike a place to find that there is less wind than normal, and still try to launch less capable gear.

+1. Two fatalities just came to mind.



Can´t really agree with this statement.
A beginner should not take off in strong winds.
A beginner should be carrying a radio-shack quality wind meter and pick something under 7knots.
less capable gear? Less capable pilots,
not picking the right site, not enough take off practice, no training from instructors.
What´s he doing with a slider on anyways.

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The use of a skydiving canopy in perfect strong headwind conditions is great, the problem is when people hike a place to find that there is less wind than normal, and still try to launch less capable gear.

+1. Two fatalities just came to mind.



Can´t really agree with this statement.
A beginner should not take off in strong winds.
A beginner should be carrying a radio-shack quality wind meter and pick something under 7knots.

Below 15kts at the top is NOT strong winds.

The difference between 3kts headwind and 0 is HUGE.


less capable gear? Less capable pilots,
not picking the right site, not enough take off practice, no training from instructors.
What´s he doing with a slider on anyways.



-SPACE-

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quote: Below 15kts at the top is NOT strong winds.

The difference between 3kts headwind and 0 is HUGE. :unquote

Sincerelly, that is YOUR experience IMHO
If you are 100kg (heavy guy)
and/or
flying a very small wing
and/ or
not good at take-off (cant run down a hill, etc)
I can understand this statement.

personally I go for nil ~ 5 kts conditions and will not fly if it´s over 10. I´m not into high wind soaring.
And there will be more wind velocity gradient and a sudden 3kts change from 12 to 15 is a killer for me.
Which brings me to point out that a lot of paragliders get into speedflying because they can fly when the wind is too strong for a paraglider.

I fly with my rears, which you cannot do with paraglider designed wings. For me, speedflying is an endless swoop.

That does make me think that we shouldn´t be treating high wind soaring and swooping the hill in the same "speedriding" name.
This is where choosing the right wing for the right job applies.

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quote: Below 15kts at the top is NOT strong winds.

The difference between 3kts headwind and 0 is HUGE. :unquote

Sincerelly, that is YOUR experience IMHO
If you are 100kg (heavy guy)
and/or
flying a very small wing
and/ or
not good at take-off (cant run down a hill, etc)
I can understand this statement.

personally I go for nil ~ 5 kts conditions and will not fly if it´s over 10. I´m not into high wind soaring.
And there will be more wind velocity gradient and a sudden 3kts change from 12 to 15 is a killer for me.
Which brings me to point out that a lot of paragliders get into speedflying because they can fly when the wind is too strong for a paraglider.

I fly with my rears, which you cannot do with paraglider designed wings. For me, speedflying is an endless swoop.

That does make me think that we shouldn´t be treating high wind soaring and swooping the hill in the same "speedriding" name.
This is where choosing the right wing for the right job applies.



My point was it is bad for a noob to rely on wind. I have noticed that a lot of the people I meet defending the idea that skydiving gear is just as capable, only fly and launch in consistent headwind areas or on skis.

I prefer zero wind myself, but there are some launches I have done that would never go without wind, skilled caddies, or a frame.


If you can make skydiving gear work, go for it! but noobs sticking to a vestigial glider just because they "like/know the way it flies" regardless of it's significant downfalls in reliability and performance is bad.

On high wind flying, it scares the hell out of me too. But a lot of these basic speed glider models are VERY good at flying in those kind of nasty winds.

-SPACE-

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Point taken.

What I would point out though, and maybe refresh your memory, is that the first of the paragliding company made speedwings (ie: Nano) were PD Stiletto copies.
Some still are based on this design but the last 4 years we see more development incorporating crossbrace and GLX types of wing as well as mini-paragliders.

Like I said, there are no inferior gliders. Just inferior pilots. Also meaning, a sensible pilot will choose the wing to fly in different conditions.
If I wanna do high wind soaring , I´d probably pick a Bobcat.
I wouldn´t use a GLX and do a barrel role.
I use a skydive parachute based design because I fly with my rears and a Yeti harness for harness turns.
Using a brake toggle type of flying (paraglider speed wings) can make you a noisy toggle pilot.
There are lots of other details to go on about pros and cons, but my point is that I felt you were making a generalization that skydiving gear for speedflying is sub standard.
I read some other posts of yours and you seem like a sensible person, so it didn´t make sense.

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There are lots of other details to go on about pros and cons, but my point is that I felt you were making a generalization that skydiving gear for speedflying is sub standard.
I read some other posts of yours and you seem like a sensible person, so it didn´t make sense.



would you jump a speedwing from a plane? or a parachute from a cliff!? how is speedriding with a parachute any different!?
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

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You lost me there VB.
You can´t jump a GLX from a plane but you can with a GLS (it´s a sailcloth Safire or crossfire)
People have D bag deployed a paraglider from a heli.
People use skydive reserve (Raven?) for Base.
Really depends what your definition of speedwing is. It´s just a name.

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You lost me there VB.
You can´t jump a GLX from a plane but you can with a GLS (it´s a sailcloth Safire or crossfire)
People have D bag deployed a paraglider from a heli.
People use skydive reserve (Raven?) for Base.
Really depends what your definition of speedwing is. It´s just a name.



what i'm trying to say is, you do use the "right tool for the job". and that is not a skydiving parachute for speedriding..

i've seen a D-bag deployment from a heli; it was quite comical to watch the resulting cutaway and reserve-ride which ended up like three valleys further away. in a cornfield. the heli chased him to get him. :D
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

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I think we are all on the same page:PB|

I have jumped paragliders and speed gliders from aircraft, and have ski launched and foot launched many different parachutes. :P

"no inferior gliders, only inferior pilots" is a little broad, but I agree with the meaning behind it.

The decision to fly inferior equipment would only be made by an inferior pilot. This exception is made for some of best canopy pilots* who learned good foot launch skills and want to take their wings out for some intimate granite surfing(tm)
*because at this point it is no longer inferior equipment, just very demanding equipment. B|

-SPACE-

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Rubbish, VB. Why don´t you give us a logical reason?
From starters, you don´t have the definition right.
Speedriding
Speedflying
High wind soaring.
Some canopies are better than others in different situations. TBH, I reckon you need a few wings.
I don´t know adjustable front trim you find on paragliding company designed wing is good enough to cover all the situations.

Guess what? There is no such thing as a speed wing.
If you are on skis and your style is more ski orientated, you will choose a 8-9 m wing. Why? you want to stay on the slope more and taking off is not so difficult with the ski speed. I wouldn´t be using a skidive canopy for that.
If you are foot launching you have a lot of canopy choice and most people (ave. weight) will be flying something 120 sqf size and over. You go bigger, you won´t be able to fly so close to the hill. Anyone who fly a skydive canopy with excessive toggles input risks stalling especially if it´s a Xbrace.
So yeah, if you are a noob-boy-wonder you are safer with paragliding company made wings.
Go bigger in size and on sunny days you can even soar on a skydive canopy. Some people think it´s more dangerous to fly close to the ground, but I think different. If your canopy collapses, and any canopy can do that regardless of paraglider or skidiving canopy. You have altitude but not that much to re-inflate.
I do think some canopies are more resistant, and/or recover better, like a Air-locked Triathlon (Big Air - skydiving canopy) or Gin Bobcat.
From my limited experience of ground launching canopies, They are all canopies. What (skydive, paragliding) is a speed wing or not is argument is bollocks and is missing the point.

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Air-locked



Not to pull the thread drift too far, but airlocks IMO are counter-productive to avoiding heading loss (which is what kills people, not collapses). Ram air canopies are naturally able to breath and collapse to absorb minor turbulence. To delay the collapse only makes the results more intense, and less likely to maintain control through a collapse.

Honestly, anyone flying a canopy, being it parachute or paraglider or speed glider, should be afraid of collapse-induced heading loss, not collapses. An "air locked" glider or parachute simply maintains internal pressure, collapsing means the glider's lifting surface is unloaded, causing the suspension lines to slack and the wing to fold. If it did anything but diminishing the safety or stability of a ram air canopy, the paragliding companies would still be using it. Trust me.

-SPACE-

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I agree,
On a paraglider, it´s pretty quick to re-inflate when it collapeses hitting turbulance.
You got a pretty big surface to keep you up there, too.
Plus carrying a reserve increases survival chance in a normally a higher altitude paragliding flight. Don´t really need an air-locked canopy for a paraglider.
Interesting you mentioned about the ability to absorb turbulence. I´ve ground launched a Triathlon once, and felt it was pretty heavy - meaning it resist to change headings to inputs compared to other non air-lock skydive canopies. It might be a good one to groundlaunch if you don´t fly too close to the ground
and with plenty of space to land, low wind (so you don´t get dragged) on a hot day.

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I felt you were making a generalization that skydiving gear for speedflying is sub standard.



That's because it is.


Why would you fly canopies that are designed to perform in clear skies in areas where turbulence is highly likely?

You can argue it all you want. It's like using skydiving gear for BASE... it can work, but it's a really bad idea and we shouldn't be telling newbies anything else.

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I felt you were making a generalization that skydiving gear for speedflying is sub standard.



That's because it is.


Why would you fly canopies that are designed to perform in clear skies in areas where turbulence is highly likely?

You can argue it all you want. It's like using skydiving gear for BASE... it can work, but it's a really bad idea and we shouldn't be telling newbies anything else.



Not arguing. Just talking realities. Your reality is as skewed as mine.
Noobs have no business flying other than on a small practice hill. In that situation, I reckon you can ground launch practice on whatever you like really. Skydive reserve, base canopy, paraglider ...
Free country isn´t it?
You are going to fall down a lot, perhaps break a bone or two. Like I did when I started snowboarding.
Like a new snowboarder, you know shit about equipment/ technique/ mountain.
Noob-boy-wonder should be aware that you can kill yourself. This isn´t something you should be doing without instruction.
I think it is more dangarous if a noob thinks he is safe because he is flying a paragliding company wing.


About skydiving canopies.
Well if you are skydiving you are flying in areas where turbulence is highly likely.
Example - when you are preparing to land and close to the ground.
Big trees growing at the LZ, buildings near by, dust devils, thermals off the hot tin roof and asphalt, you name it. Have I ever heard of people complaining that a skydiving canopy is not designed for flying in turbulance?
No one is giving me convincing facts why a skydiving canopy is sub standard, "because it is?" R U talking to a dumb child or you don´t know? :D

You choose when get on the load, don´t you? Considering conditions like crosswind, down wind, velocity, turbulance, etc...

Pick a paraglider for example. I have a UPS Ascent2 which is a DSV1 very stable, but I wouldn´t dream that all paragliders must be stable because they are designed to fly under all conditions and will not collapse. You go DSV2, 3 whatever, you are trading stability with agility.
Nothing is perfect, Set your own standards.

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Speed gear :-

  • Weight shift harness - good
  • Canopy hooked in lower - good
  • Canopy has trimmers - good

    Just a couple of things - but important anyway.



  • Agreed

    With your skydive canopy,
    Use longer risers and a Gin Yeti type harness and you have a weight shift harness hooked in lower and wing span spreads out more.

    Canopy trimmers. Do we really need them?
    and/or can we really use it optimum?

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    Well if you are skydiving you are flying in areas where turbulence is highly likely.



    no, you're not.

    i'd like to tell you what i feel about statements as yours, but that is very likely to get me banned..
    “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
    -Hunter S. Thompson
    "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
    -Yoda

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    Well then let me tell you first to go stuff yourself,
    Cos I just told you my experience.
    Can you read?
    :o




    There's no need to be defensive or abusive.

    Just like in skydiving you don't know what you don't know and you don't realise that until you get hundreds and hundreds of jumps.

    I've no problem with you doing whatever you want - as you say, it's a free world.
    I do have issues with you (or anyone!) posting potentially dangerous advice in a public forum where a newbie may take it at face value.

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    You are going to fall down a lot, perhaps break a bone or two. Like I did when I started snowboarding.



    Call me a wimp, but I'd rather minimise the risk of injuries like that as much as possible, by say, using gear that will help me prevent it. It doesn't do me any good as a pilot to be busted up for a few months because I've blown a launch...

    A little about my experience - I've flown almost every type of speed wing over the last 6 years. I've missed the more paraglider-y types like the Bobcat and Swoop, but pretty much all the others in various sizes from 8m up in all sorts of conditions.

    I pretty much taught myself on a Sabre. Possible? Yes. But smart? No, not really - not when we know much more about it and it's not what we should be encouraging new pilots to do.

    So why shouldn't we use skydiving wings? That seems to be the big question you've got?

    There are a load of reasons, but for me the big ones are how they recover from turbulence (speed, heading and altitude), how fast they pick up altitude from deep toggle input (for when you get a line wrong), good glide ratio for shallow parts of the mountain and high dive rate on toggles or harness for when you hit steeper parts, ease of inflation on launch (particularly in low wind)... the list goes on.
    A skydiving canopy may have one or two of these, but it isn't built for all of them.

    Again, why would you use something for which it isn't designed?

    Forgive me, but for someone with 500 jumps you sound a lot like someone with 100 jumps looking for an answer that they like, rather than the correct one. Skydiving gear isn't a good choice for groundlaunching / speedflying. It can be done, but it's not smart.

    I'm far from the only experienced GL pilot here - I'd be surprised if many of the others said that it isn't better to have specific gear, rather than skydiving stuff. Ask them if you don't believe me.

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    what are we talking about here?


    skydiving canopies can launch just fine. so can kites. Hell, I have tried to launch a STEERABLE ROUND off a STEEP slope and failed, but I know I can do it.

    It's all about what you want to be teaching the endless supply of muppets that muppet see, muppet do.

    I have been teaching speed flying for two years now, and from my experience I would say that skydiving gear is counter-productive in comparison. But that's just me.

    -SPACE-

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    Counter-productive is the word.
    You nailed it.
    Since there are realistically no sweedwings manufactured by skydiving companies that can be flown by skydivers themselves under 1000 jumps, (Daedalus GLX)
    and Xbrace skydive canopies are expensive to buy, most flyers skydivers or paragliders will end up buying Gin, Ozone, etc.
    might as well strat with steering with the brake toggles and experiment with trimmers. It takes time to know what your canopy can do in the beginning.

    Somehow the topic has shifted to noobs.
    All I said is that good instruction is absolutely necessary and should not be replaced by a gear that is supposed to be safer.

    When I started, there were no speedwings available. No choice. Not an issue of smart or not.
    What I´d like to ask those of you who started in a similar way, Sabre or whatever, isn´t it because you had your limitation with your ability and the canopy in the beginning, and later you switched to a dedicated speedwing and you are better and the canopy does what you want to do. Because of that, you are thinking people must start on a dedicated speedwing?

    But, yeah. Somehow paragliding companies can produce lower priced canopies with sailcloth and Xbrace, and does make you wonder why?
    I see there are no GLS (sailcloth Safire) anymore.
    So no entry level wilngs. PD could have made a Sailcloth Stiletto and that would have been great!
    Only if they can compete with the pricing of Nano.

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