jrjny 0 #1 February 26, 2011 A novice jumper like myself flying a Velo 96 or something similar? 2:1 WL appx (not doing that btw lol) Are the flight char's of the speedriding wings much different or something? Jeff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #2 February 26, 2011 Not sure what you want us to say ... Well .. to start with 96sq ft = 9(ish_ sq meters) and a speed wing THAT small is for experts only .... So to answer your question Little of no difference.... in many respects. Can you handle your canopy doing this .... Speed Acro ? BUT here's one....... a Speed wind is already open when you take off.... a 96 vello is not .... and when it opens it can spin up faster than you can blink. A beginner at Speed riding should NOT be thinking of starting on a glider THAT small - in fact (IMHO) if you have not got ANY paragliding experience - you should not be thinking of speed-riding without expert tuition. Even in Paragliding -- full size solo canopies come in different experience levels.... a beginner should be on a DHV 1 0r low end 1-2 ..... my DVH 2 canopy can get 'pretty lively' at times and a beginner has no place being on such a wing. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #3 February 26, 2011 So... you are a novice jumper with a lot of speed flying experience? or a novice at everything? Speed wings have a broad range of flight characteristics, anything from aggressive/ground hungry like a JVX to fast recovery arc and awesome good glide. (WAY better than anything in skydiving can even come close to). Flying a canopy close to the ground is going to be higher risk than a canopy way up high. but you have to land everything. -SPACE- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #4 February 26, 2011 Hi, I went speed flying with my friend the other day he has a Nano I have an Icarus 105. His Nano would give him much more lift and he would have to make more manoevers to stay in proximity to the ground. My wing would stay with the ground more easily but would not be suitable for a slope with less of an angle. So to answer your question, yes there is a significant difference between speed flying wings and parachutes, but there are newer and newer models coming out with steeper and steeper trim, as the sport progresses. I will stick to parachutes as they are what I know and the speed flying wings look far too twitchy for my liking. Different strokes for different folks."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jrjny 0 #5 February 27, 2011 to clarify, I never tried speedriding but I was thinking about it and it seems like everyone uses tiny canopies (even beginners?) that skydivers would take 500+ jumps to even consider. Rhys, I guess the chars are different then...agreed on the risks nonetheless. Is there a course for this in the US anyone knows of? Jeff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyn 0 #6 February 27, 2011 500+ jumps is a bit much, learn to fly your parachute, not just pull strings and put feet on ground. There are more and more schools opening up, take a class as speedflying is not skydiving, and speedflying is not paragliding. Each sport can provide you valuable knowledge, either is a good starting point but neither will provide you with the entire picture. There is great information on http://www.speed-flying.com/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #7 February 27, 2011 Quote500+ jumps is a bit much, learn to fly your parachute, not just pull strings and put feet on ground. There are more and more schools opening up, take a class as speedflying is not skydiving, and speedflying is not paragliding. Each sport can provide you valuable knowledge, either is a good starting point but neither will provide you with the entire picture. There is great information on http://www.speed-flying.com/ + -SPACE- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #8 February 27, 2011 Quote I will stick to parachutes as they are what I know and the speed flying wings look far too twitchy for my liking. There are a ton of different speed flying gliders. There are speed gliders that can match any terrain/decent angle you desire. The Gin Nano/Ozone Bullet gliders are on the far end of the spectrum as far as fast recovery arc/roll rate. -SPACE- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #9 February 27, 2011 QuoteThere are a ton of different speed flying gliders. There are speed gliders that can match any terrain/decent angle you desire. The Gin Nano/Ozone Bullet gliders are on the far end of the spectrum as far as fast recovery arc/roll rate. True that but can you pull the front risers? After watching nzaerosports 'summer of love' test flights ( Ilona and Foxy )I am very dubious of trying such manoevers on canopies that are not designed for such. those were the designs that did not work out well, Clara and petra were very nice. my observations of the frontal collapses at high wingloadings scared the shit out of me and i like to use fronts when speed flying. I try to fly my risers where possible and save my toggles for landing. I will add some risers with trim to my Icarus 105 which is quite an agressive canopy (also and experiemntal from nzaerosports from 1993), but from what I can see, speed wings fly different and react different and recover different to parachutes, my Icarus 105 is quite square, has quite a steep trim and longer lines. I get my skis soon and the snow will start falling in a few months, I will stick to parachutes and really want a GLX. We have big steep mountains here in NZ so no need for pissing around with a mellow trim. As I said, different strokes for different folks, but the whippy, overelliptical, short recovery of speed wings does not tickle my fancy, I prefer nice smooth long carving turns. of a relatively square (slightly tapered) parachute. but that is just me..."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyn 0 #10 February 28, 2011 The trim of the speed wings is not as mellow as you think. Three of us had a session to compare speeds and angle of incidence. I was flying a GLX120, Andreas was under a GLX135 and Kris under his Bullet 12m. When Kris set his trim tabs to the deepest setting his speed was faster but we could still pass him after giving him a 10second lead (on a 5000 vertical feet decent), but his angle of incidence was not that far off of the GLX wings. I used to subscribe to your school of thought also, however, the paragliding community is making leaps and bounds year in and year out and will surpass the GLX in no time. This is the benefit of having several different manufactures, that are producing new wings almost every year. The speed wings also provide a larger range performance allowing lower experienced pilots to enter the sport. Now we just have to hope that people don't try to exceed their mountaineering capabilities. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #11 February 28, 2011 I just got a Little Cloud 16m^2, trimmers in (slow/soaring mode) I can acro and easily soar it on regular thermal days. trimmers out, well, um, wow. It scares the shit out of me. It's not as fast as my JVX but it will keep up with almost anything over 12m'^2. other seasoned speed riders also agree it's too fast (trimmers) all the way out. Collapses on a speed glider can be pretty epic. Sorry to use that lame ass word, but I avoid them by all means. They also are 10x worse on a mini wing or efficient canopy. Short recovery arcs are fun, and great for a lot of Colorado due to our wimpy mountains. If I was in NZ with a tram or heli, I would be on a GLX or my JVX as well. -SPACE- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #12 February 28, 2011 QuoteThe trim of the speed wings is not as mellow as you think. Three of us had a session to compare speeds and angle of incidence. I was flying a GLX120, Andreas was under a GLX135 and Kris under his Bullet 12m. When Kris set his trim tabs to the deepest setting his speed was faster but we could still pass him after giving him a 10second lead (on a 5000 vertical feet decent), but his angle of incidence was not that far off of the GLX wings. interesting, do you have a trim setup in the GLX's? I am yet to try GLX, but one is high on my hit list. QuoteI used to subscribe to your school of thought also, however, the paragliding community is making leaps and bounds year in and year out and will surpass the GLX in no time. My friend purchased the first GLX (that was not a test wing) from aerosports in 2003, so it is about time. Still if you exceed the trim capabilities of a speed wing will it frontal collapse?"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyn 0 #13 February 28, 2011 No trim tabs or speed bars on the GLX, but front risers are a go. However, there are very few instances I use front risers, as the wing is very harness responsive. I would recommend demoing and small (10m^2 or below) high performance speed wing like a fluid 9.5m^2. These wings are significantly cheaper than a GLX. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #14 February 28, 2011 Cheaper or less expensive?Even with the same trim and size are the linesets the same length? I don't like the stiletto type short recovery arc and the over elliptical wing. price is only one of the factors and i can use parachutes until i want to fork out for a glx. having said that, I want to try one of these... I would like trim on my risers however to match the terrain and wind strength. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matt002 0 #15 March 1, 2011 I use a Swing Spitfire 11, feels much like a small velocity with very negative recovery arc with the trim full out. I have started to fly with a little more trim as I find it more fun to gain a little altitude and use it to dive at the terrain in linked S turns so carrying some reserve speed in the wing that allows me to attack more and pop up over obstacles, rather than just fly with the trim off in full drive without the extra energy and speed created by smooth harness turns. I didn't like the look of the large speed wings with the stilleto like auto recovery but have been blown away by the performance of my spitfire, didn't realise flying on harness and toggles could be such fun and would not be interested in using skydiving wings for speedflying now. To answer the OP question, the main difference is that no one is there to tell you what to do or not do, a lot of speed flyers would not be allowed to fly their speed wings under the type of regulation you see at a DZ in the similar way to how base jumpers are not allowed to use their base rigs to skydive. I think the risk profile of speed flying is more similar to base, it depends a lot on the choices of the individual, flying out from a large grassy hill in a straight line and landing into a large flat open field has a much lower risk than this for example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLKVx60I5BM If you want to fly fast close to the terrain, high performance canopy piloting skills are essential, the side of a mountain are not the best places to first learn these skills. There should be fewer rocks on the landing area of your DZ. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #16 March 1, 2011 QuoteI use a Swing Spitfire 11, feels much like a small velocity with very negative recovery arc with the trim full out.negative recovery arc ?? or just long ? or neutral ? To me negative would mean unstable/would always increas the dive...scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matt002 0 #17 March 1, 2011 I use Brian Germains terminology Positive: gains altitude after speed inducing input Neutral : Planes out to level flight with no pilot input Negative: Requires pilot input to achieve level flight Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #18 March 1, 2011 thanks for the clarification, I was thinking different due to what I learnt in Swiss paragliding (different terminologies)scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jrjny 0 #19 March 3, 2011 So in speedflying you get a LOT of positive lift if you flare I take it, which mitigates the risk of crashing if flying low and coming up against some impassable terrain? Margin of error is larger than it appears... Good comparison, thanks. J Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matt002 0 #20 March 3, 2011 The equipment does little to make it safer. Flying small highly loaded wings close to the ground/rocks/trees is hazardous, speedflying is in my opinion more dangerous than skydiving. There are more ways to get hurt. Margin for error is variable, you can fly at high speed in very close proximity to the terrain or you can launch and just fly out into open air. Either way you will still have to land into a landing area is often full of rocks/telephone wires/fences/animals/trees. Take care. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #21 March 4, 2011 from what i've heard, about five of 2008/9 national championships speedriders are dead by now. yes, it's that dangerous. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #22 March 4, 2011 Quote Margin of error is larger than it appears... J It really, really isn't. Site selection, route planning, micrometerology and common good sense all play huge roles in speedflying, things that are often neglected by beginners. It's not just about picking the right gear and running off a hill. Will you be better off under a speedwing rather than a skydiving canopy? As a general rule? Yeah, probably; in just the same way that you could BASE with skydiving gear... simply having BASE gear doesn't make it that much safer though if you've no understanding of the basics... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #23 March 5, 2011 QuoteSo in speedflying you get a LOT of positive lift if you flare I take it, which mitigates the risk of crashing if flying low and coming up against some impassable terrain? Margin of error is larger than it appears... Good comparison, thanks. J just buy the most expensive stuff. it's way safer with skis on. you will be fine. -SPACE- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #24 March 5, 2011 QuoteQuoteSo in speedflying you get a LOT of positive lift if you flare I take it, which mitigates the risk of crashing if flying low and coming up against some impassable terrain? Margin of error is larger than it appears... Good comparison, thanks. J just buy the most expensive stuff. it's way safer with skis on. you will be fine. you mean like this!? there was another vid posted on dorkzone not too long ago, dont remember where, guy spinned up with some linetwists and then nearly crashed into a nice rock..“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #25 March 5, 2011 found this video someone posted on facebook, no crashes, but play close attention to the precision the guys are flying. really nice vid! http://vimeo.com/20528861 “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
