Sad day for the responsible swoopers of this world

[CanuckInUSA 0]

This is a rather sad day for the responsible swoopers of the world. Not because turns over 180 have been banned on regular loads at Skydive Arizona. No I can live with that rule as I’ve felt for a while now that going big on a regular load was just rolling the dice.

No this is a rather sad day for swooping because Skydive Arizona has stated that to them low passes are not economically viable for their business. So one must now wonder how close minded DZ managements will be when it comes to people showing up interested in doing hop n’ pops because they want to be responsible swoopers and do their thing in clean airspace. How many more DZs will feel the same way about low passes like the management of Skydive Arizona feels? Boy it sure is nice to know that the responsible swoopers of this world who like to practice their discipline in controlled environments are to now the scape goats for all of skydiving’s problems.

What is Eloy going to do when people doing 180s flying directly at people come straight in on the landing pattern start conflicting with each other, or worse start colliding with each other? If they really meant they were serious about this issue, they would have banned all turns over 90s. But all you anti-swoopers have just signed the swooping death card if/when you support this notion that low passes are not economically viable so we’re not going to be doing them anymore attitude. Truly a sad day for the world’s responsible swooping community …

PS: I’ve just changed my profile which once read under Home DZ as “Wishing it was Eloy” to “A homeless hop n' pop swooper”.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[freeflyimpaired 0]

When did this come out? Or if you don't mind me sounding rude, says who? I was out there last friday and they were flying tons of low passes for an accuracy meet that was suppose to happen this weekend. If this is true I'm just going to roll my eyes.

I've changed my Home DZ to Buckeye. I've been frequenting it for a while now and this new rule will make the decision on where to go jump that much easier. They have a seperate landing area for Hi Pro landings, now all they need is grass.

Joe.

"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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When did this come out? Or if you don't mind me sounding rude, says who?

Bryan Burke ... that's who.

PS: I have a lot of respect for Mr Burke, but I am rather disappointed that he seems to think that hop n' pop jumpers are not worth much merit.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[ianmdrennan 2]

Hey guys,

It's ok to keep this going here but lets try and make sure we don't have too much overlap with this thread

There are good points being raised by most people, regardless of stance, on the issue.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[skyninja 0]

Keep coming and maybe we can get some grass.

Why don't you just play 'chicken' on the railroad tracks? It would be a cheaper way to toy with death, I'm sure.

CWR #2 - "You SAID collision!"

[gearless_chris 1]

Find a Cessna DZ that still does static line/IAD. They'll have all kinds of low loads .

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[Spizzzarko 0]

No way then they ask you to JM the loads. Fuck a lot of static line and IAD!

[AdD 1]

Ya I hate free skydiving, damn those 100 jumps last july and august sucked! It's even worse when you get jump credit, then you gotta go again and pack twice as much!

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[NewClearSports 0]

The solution is simple. Jump ticket price is the same wether you get out at 5K or 14K.

Any DZ owner would know that if 1/3 or 1/2 the load gets out at 5K but pays the same price as the guys getting out at the top, it will save enough money on fuel with the lighter load to cover the fuel needed for the extra pass.

I know most DZ's price by altitude, but with multiple passes it does cost them money.

OR

Book loads that are strickly Hop & Pop Loads, say every 4th load or something.

Safety does come with a cost, and we can't expect the DZ owners to absorb it all. The swooping comunity should work together with the DZ owners to come to a safe and cost effective solution.

[RkyMtnHigh 0]

Steve...come on... really...it's not like you can't make your hook turns nor swoop anymore...you just will need to do it elsewhere...away from others in a traditional landing pattern...is that so bad?

You know I love ya my Billy Joel...and I want to have ya here for a long time

_________________________________________

[NewClearSports 0]

OH - I just read the speel by Bryan Burke. I guess my previous post idea wouldn't be good enough for SDAZ.

But I do think it would be good enough for most reasonable sized DZ,s. (1 or 2 otters)

Well we as swoopers are only 20% of the customer base, so who cares what we want. After reading that I no longer plan to make any trips to SDAZ. Too bad too because it use to be my favorit "Vacation" DZ.

I think they are just getting TOO BIG and they are getting the attitude that comes with getting that big. "We don't need your business", well that's ok I will take my business elsewhere.

[CrazyL 0]

Sounds like the good ol' days of the 'banned hook turn' is coming back into style, like bell bottoms did. I'm gonna be in trouble everytime I land, again. I'm so addicted to this facet of the sport. The final approach and landing is, has, and continues to be a huge part of why I still jump. Even being a responsible hookturner in having not killed any of the 30,000+ jumpers nor myself I still will abort the most exciting part of 'my' jump, so that others may land safely. I'm a bad jumper, as I approach my intended landing area and I deem the airspace 'clear' for me to perform, it's 'on'. Watch the f!@% out earth cause here I come. Rules, respect the rules. As the swoop competition era has come along after the banned hookturn days,to me, much has improved. At some dz's low passes for swoopers has become common. Separated landing areas as well. There are mentors for swooping and canopy control, more shared information. As long as there are freefallers there will be hookturners. As long as I fly high performance parachute, i'll excersize 'my' high performance parachute piloting skills. Other parachutist need not move 'out of the way' if they are in the airspace I may want to use to perform 'my' complex routine of hook'n it,if a parachutist is in'my' way i'll abort to the much more simple preferred landing pattern and go with the flow. Blame it on the hookturners.I've witnessed too many messed up landing patterns and collisions even when hookturns were banned altogether, when sounding off the landing pattern prior to every load, when preaching the word about landing pattern over the mic,even when all jumpers agree on the landing pattern prior to the jump. The part of skydiving that has lacked in evolving has been the landing pattern, since the early 90's not much has changed about the landing pattern. Which is more hazardous, if a jumper screwed up the landing pattern by unintentionally landing the opposite direction as the majority of jumpers or me intentionally rip'n it through the airspace.

[parachutist 1]

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This is a rather sad day for the responsible swoopers of the world.

I don't believe that swoopers as a whole can ever be mixed in with standard patterns. Some pilots could, but you can't really isolate those individuals and give them a 'responsible swooper' card. Here in Georgia we just experienced a local DPRE/former USPA director/TI/AFFI/Master Rigger/Licensed pilot take out someone by doing a high performance approach through a traffic pattern. There are really not many more qualificatons that a jumper can have... he had them all and estimated 10k+ jumps, and still took someone out. I believe you have no ground to stand on when trying to convince anyone that swooping will be done responsibly in same air space with standard approaches.

I don't mind dumping high & landing long after the freefallers for some swooping practice, or landing out in a different area and walking back. It's really a small sacrifice to make.

Chris

[DAVE619 0]

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This is a rather sad day for the responsible swoopers of the world. Not because turns over 180 have been banned on regular loads at Skydive Arizona. No I can live with that rule as I’ve felt for a while now that going big on a regular load was just rolling the dice.

No this is a rather sad day for swooping because Skydive Arizona has stated that to them low passes are not economically viable for their business. So one must now wonder how close minded DZ managements will be when it comes to people showing up interested in doing hop n’ pops because they want to be responsible swoopers and do their thing in clean airspace. How many more DZs will feel the same way about low passes like the management of Skydive Arizona feels? Boy it sure is nice to know that the responsible swoopers of this world who like to practice their discipline in controlled environments are to now the scape goats for all of skydiving’s problems.

What is Eloy going to do when people doing 180s flying directly at people come straight in on the landing pattern start conflicting with each other, or worse start colliding with each other? If they really meant they were serious about this issue, they would have banned all turns over 90s. But all you anti-swoopers have just signed the swooping death card if/when you support this notion that low passes are not economically viable so we’re not going to be doing them anymore attitude. Truly a sad day for the world’s responsible swooping community …

PS: I’ve just changed my profile which once read under Home DZ as “Wishing it was Eloy” to “A homeless hop n' pop swooper”.

I dont understand why they dont restrict 270s and 180s to the swoop pond located way out on the other end of the main landing area. As long as the high performance pilots keep thier pattern away from the main laning area, there should be no problems.

[dharma1976 0]

ahhh I love those days when the clouds are at 5 grand and we get 10 dollar hop and pops all day long at the ranch....

those are some damn good days

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[piisfish 135]

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The solution is simple. Jump ticket price is the same wether you get out at 5K or 14K.

yeah yeah sure.... get 1/3 of altitude for the same price, why not...
Here we have around 16$ for 1000-1500m (3300-5000 ft approx) and 35$ for 4000m. NO way I'm paying 35£ for a regular low altitude jump.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[billvon 2,434]

>I don't believe that swoopers as a whole can ever be mixed in with standard patterns.

I would disagree with that. I jump with some excellent swoopers who have no problem at all backing off and flying a normal pattern in traffic. The problem isn't swoopers or swooping, the problem is doing specific manuevers in traffic.

[parachutist 1]

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>I don't believe that swoopers as a whole can ever be mixed in with standard patterns.

I would disagree with that. I jump with some excellent swoopers who have no problem at all backing off and flying a normal pattern in traffic. The problem isn't swoopers or swooping, the problem is doing specific manuevers in traffic.

I too know individuals like the ones you're talking about. That's why I specified swoopers as a whole. (I think I learned how to swoop with respect for others from some of the same people you're talking about). As a group though, swoopers include some overconfident people who believe themselves to be more capable than they really are. Swoopers as a group can't be in the same areas as standard patterns, because they cannot be trusted. As a group swoopers are a dangerous crowd. I know because I'm in that crowd.

A good analogy would be car racing. Yes it's done on the city streets, but it ends up with broken people and jailed people. That's why we have race tracks with bales of hay to protect the drivers and walls to protect the observers. Swooping needs its own area, far away from standard landing patterns too. Same reasons. Fast doesn't mix well with slow.

This separation would still end up with some broken swoopers, but in my opinion that's ok. Swoopers can run into objects or each other and that is ok... it's a known risk that swoopers choose to accept. Running into observers or running into people who're flying standard landing patterns is not ok... those people didn't choose to subject themselves to the risks of swooping.

Chris

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Swoopers can run into objects or each other and that is ok... it's a known risk that swoopers choose to accept.

Sorry Chris but I wholeheartedly disagree with this. I don't want anyone to hit me anymore than I want to hit them. Shifting a problem to the swoop lane isn't any more acceptable than a 'swooper' hitting another jumper who isn't swooping.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[parachutist 1]

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Swoopers can run into objects or each other and that is ok... it's a known risk that swoopers choose to accept.

Sorry Chris but I wholeheartedly disagree with this. I don't want anyone to hit me anymore than I want to hit them. Shifting a problem to the swoop lane isn't any more acceptable than a 'swooper' hitting another jumper who isn't swooping.

Blues,
Ian

Well we finally found something that we totally disagree about. That took a while

I agree that impacts aren't good for anyone, but those who're swooping are willingly accepting a higher probability of injury. For this reason I do believe there's a difference between those who choose to "go big or go home" and those who are out for some RW or who just graduated AFF.

Protecting those who are not willing to take the risks of swooping is my intention, and complete separation is a good way to begin achieving that goal. Sure there will still be risks in each camp, but they'll be more manageable and the landing patterns won't be so zoo-like.

See you soon,
Chris

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Seperate landing areas are needed not only for turn styles, but they are also needed for canopy speeds. A seasoned swooper under a sub 100 square foot x-braced canopy can harness turn a 90 degree turn and still be coming in faster than someone who did a bigger front riser turn under a larger canopy.

When I was learning to swoop under large more docile canopies (I still am learning), swooping on regular loads didn't bug me because the speed across the ground (while high enough to hurt myself) wasn't that fast. But ever since I started jumping x-braced canopies, the speed I traveling across the ground is just too fast at times to be able to react to all situations in your typical LZ (like kids or dogs running in the way, let alone some other landing canopy).

Swoopers need to show better judgement on regular loads (like aborting the swoop if there is any traffic), but DZs should not be discouraging swoopers who are trying to practice their trade in controlled environments. We need to segregate our LZs and we need access to low passes and/or high pulls.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[CrazyL 0]

landing patterns won't be so zoo-like. ***

that'll be the day. I've seen plenty of non-swoopers screw up the landing pattern , swoopers too. The most common time for a jumpers to land all different directions. is on a no-wind day. The wind indicators all read different directions and parachutist inevitably land like the wind indicators, all different directions. I agree that non-swoopers and swoopers should have seperate landing areas. Some DZ's have the space some don't. I also think that there is more to this lesson(collisions/landing pattern) than just seperating landing areas. I feel the lesson to be learned is being overshadowed by the seperate landing area quick fix. Two landing areas within close proximity pose other issues that must also be overcome. The airspace above a dedicated swoop landing area(go big or go home area) can be a even more hazardous place for the non-swooper as well as the swooper. Essentially the swoop area would be best as a no-fly zone for students and non-swoopers. Some of my favorite landing approaches begin between 1,500ft and 2,000ft. accelerating to high speeds prior to landing, can't do this every jump 'cause airspace does'nt always allow me to, even in a swoop area. It's the beginning of the skydiving season for many jumpers. Beware, skydiving is dangerous. No wind days are especially dangerous in all landing areas, even more dangerous than being in the air with a swooper. If we're in the air together remember the most important thing, "Don't take me out!"and have a great skydive. Many Blue Skies !!!

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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No wind days are especially dangerous in all landing areas

No wind chaos can be reduced by having the entire load agree to a landing direction before the plane takes off. Before we adopt knee-jerk solutions, let's start communicating with each other, figure out what people are planning to do and make a plan before the airplane leaves the ground. Plus where possible let's segregate slow canopies from fast ones. Very rarely do you ever see Cessnas landing with the big jets (and when it does happen the Cessna is expect to maintain a higher approach speed than it normally uses). If aviation can come up with rules for slow versus fast wings, why can't we?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[CrazyL 0]

For sure !! Seems to be the most effective plan that i've seen and used so far. Communication with all jumpers on the load prior to leaving the ground can work, it's even better than manifest repeating the warnings all throughout the day. Communication at the loading area between groups generally sucks unless someone speaks up about which way to land as well as exit order. You know, exit seperation still sucks too. Jumpers are'nt always reliable. Sucks finding out homie did'nt leave enough seperation as their canopy opens right between me and my buddy. Happened 2 weekends ago and we communicated on the airplane 2 different times during the flight.

[oosskis 0]

I first posted this in the General Forum that's 10 pages long... Nobody will read it there and dammit, I want to be heard! ;)

For the record, I agree that the main landing area is not a place for swooping. Straight in, 90's, 180's whatever the rules are, fine. Swooping should have a separate landing area and, ideally, separate hop & pop loads (Cessna?).

It is clear to me that SDAZ has taken a stand and has cited economic reasons to not build a separate landing area, do hop & pop loads or support swooping in any way. I cannot blame them for that as they are in a desert environment where it is hard to keep things green and ponds full. They obviously think that it is not in their best interest to cater to swoopers as they have enough money coming in from the rest of the skydiving population. They also seem to think that the adverse effect of having less current and less experienced flyers come there seems to be justified. So, kudos to them for cleaning up the landing area, boo to them for not supporting swooping (although understandable) and yay to those DZ's who think that swooping is a worthwile investment eg. Skydive Colorado.

"Bodygolfing" isn't as much fun as it sounds. People get pissed when you don't replace your divets.