davelepka 4 #26 June 28, 2006 QuoteAll turns were initiated at 510-530 feet, all lasted about 5 seconds, counting from initiation to being on heading. Any idea what altitude you're at once you're on heading? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frost 1 #27 June 28, 2006 no idea... if i had to guess - i'd say 40 feet? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #28 June 28, 2006 This is where I'm confused. Your earlier post said you may have even been 10 ft high on those turns. Are you saying that you are still turning your canopy at 45ft, and that you go from completing your turn to level flight in less than 40 ft? Maybe we're not talking about the same thing, but if you read Stu's post from earlier, he described his time in turn, then his 'roll out', which is the additional straight-line dive the canopy makes in recovering from the turn. Is your roll out only 40ft high? If so, how are you getting your canopy from a high-speed diving turn to level flight so quickly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frost 1 #29 June 28, 2006 i am not really saying anything. I said "no idea". It could be 100 feet, i dont know. To be honest, I fail to see the reasoning behind your line of questioning and how it pertains to the original topic... PM me if you want to talk about the questions you asked more. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #30 June 28, 2006 Quotei am not really saying anything. I said "no idea". It could be 100 feet, i dont know. To be honest, I fail to see the reasoning behind your line of questioning and how it pertains to the original topic... PM me if you want to talk about the questions you asked more. he is trying to get a better feel for what is going on with your canopy. something is off if your that low.. and if you want a answer to your original question, turn the velo higher than your turning your vx. if you loading at 2.0 roughly, turn it at 750 ft to start, then work your way down to the power band, probably 650-750 ft. depending on how you fly, and rate of turn. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frost 1 #31 June 28, 2006 Quoteyou cant tell anything from that vid, it is from the pilots veiw, with a HUGE fisheye lens. you cant tell when the rotation starts and when it ends? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #32 June 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteyou cant tell anything from that vid, it is from the pilots veiw, with a HUGE fisheye lens. you cant tell when the rotation starts and when it ends? have no idea. a ground vid would be better. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frost 1 #33 June 28, 2006 Quote he is trying to get a better feel for what is going on with your canopy. something is off if you that low.. Again, i am not "that low". In fact i am not low at all. :) if two people tell you that they start same turn from the same altitude at the same DZ may be they are on to something? Quoteand if you want a answer to your original question, turn the velo higher that your turning your vx. if you loading at 2.0 roughly, turn it at 750 ft to start, then work your way down to the power band, probably 650-750 ft. depending on how you fly, and rate of turn. Cool - thanks for the input. Thats what i was looking for.SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #34 June 28, 2006 QuoteAgain, i am not "that low". In fact i am not low at all. :) if two people tell you that they start same turn from the same altitude at the same DZ may be they are on to something? well you have to understand. someone says they load a VX at 2,5 and says they are doing 270's at 500ft. I don't see how they are not low. on the otherhand, why would't' i believe you? thats why i want to see a video, to better understand what is going on. there could be many factors "why you are not low". but 500ft, on a vx loaded at 2.5 with its standard trim, even with a fast 270, IS low. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites frost 1 #35 June 28, 2006 sure, i totally understand. I'll try to get a ground video for you this weekend. May be Johnny has a few of his, but i dont have any of my landings... (with all this editing and uploading i may finally learn how to use the video editing software! :)) i gotta say though the numbers are a bit off in your post. Johnny loads his VX104 at 2.4 and turns from 550-600, i load vx111 at 2.1 and turn it from 550, and my VX96 at 2.4 also turned at 550 just fine I am actually surprised at the reaction - it's only logical to think that pilots would be turning around the same altitude (assuming same canopy type, same type of turn and same MSL offset of the DZ). Would be great to see a vid of someone loaded about the same on the same type of canopy doing the same type of turn and using the same tools (neptune) for comparison. First POV with fish eye is OK - i can tell when the rotation starts :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RMURRAY 1 #36 June 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteAgain, i am not "that low". In fact i am not low at all. :) if two people tell you that they start same turn from the same altitude at the same DZ may be they are on to something? well you have to understand. someone says they load a VX at 2,5 and says they are doing 270's at 500ft. I don't see how they are not low. on the otherhand, why would't' i believe you? thats why i want to see a video, to better understand what is going on. there could be many factors "why you are not low". but 500ft, on a vx loaded at 2.5 with its standard trim, even with a fast 270, IS low. I am not at the high experience level of some of you guys so I hesitate to comment but my VX is loaded at 2.3 and I start 270 at 670ft using neptune alarm and eye balls. Usually hit 6 ft gates nicely. Not sure about the time to complete but it is not what I would call a slow turn or whipping it around. My buddy flies a Velocity 90 at 2.2 and when we land together he generally needs more altitude than I do - making it a real challange. rm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #37 June 28, 2006 QuoteI am not at the high experience level of some of you guys so I hesitate to comment but my VX is loaded at 2.3 and I start 270 at 670ft using neptune alarm and eye balls that sounds about right to me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #38 June 28, 2006 QuoteMike isnt in the corner when he turns. Maybe elevations are making the difference. I turn my VX 104 loaded between 2.4 and 2.5 between 500 quick and 650, pretty slow. If anyone wants to see this unbelievable video of us not being in the corner, I'll dig some up. this is where I got the numbers. I suspect the turn is usually at 650. or higher. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #39 June 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteAgain, i am not "that low". In fact i am not low at all. :) if two people tell you that they start same turn from the same altitude at the same DZ may be they are on to something? well you have to understand. someone says they load a VX at 2,5 and says they are doing 270's at 500ft. I don't see how they are not low. on the otherhand, why would't' i believe you? thats why i want to see a video, to better understand what is going on. there could be many factors "why you are not low". but 500ft, on a vx loaded at 2.5 with its standard trim, even with a fast 270, IS low. He's not low.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Treejumps 0 #40 June 28, 2006 Hey whats up Mark? As someone who flies a VX 120 at 2.5 I can tell you that it is not unusual to do a 270 from 500', although I probably do a faster 270 than most. I noticed a many years ago that my large VX did not seem to have the huge long dives that smaller ones exhibit. As canopies increase in size the amount of lift generated does not increase in a linear fashion, it increases more. How much? I can't say but it is a fairly well known fact that several canopy designers have mentioned. I can tell you for sure that I have done long carving 360's from no more that 700', and that I have been low (maybe 400') and still whipped 270's (front risers of course) and still land on rears. I used to wonder about all these guys saying that they start their turns at 800', 900' 1000' and thought they must not know where they start their turn, or that it just sounds cooler to say "I start my turn at 3500'" than "I do my typical turns at around 500 to 600'". I think it all comes down to turn style and the size and type of canopy you fly. There is no questions though, I can do a 270 under my VX at 500' and have no issues coming in on rears and getting a big swoop. Also no question, from 700' and I'll be high. Cya Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 3 #41 June 28, 2006 I am one of those guys that used to start his turn very high by todays standards. Long harness 360's with just a bit of riser from 900 feet sometimes. These days I do more of a lower "banging" turn , but I will generally never throw a 270 a foot lower than 500 feet under my current Velo 84 if I hope to have a clean run. I will throw 360's from around 700 and inside-450's from right around 800, but those are pretty quick too. I totally agree with Tree about the larger wing using less altitude in a turn, regardless of wingload. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites raymod2 1 #42 June 28, 2006 @SkymonkeyONE: You brought down your turn initiation altitude to improve performance? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Spizzzarko 0 #43 June 28, 2006 All of this discussion about turn and initiation altitudes is getting to be a little redundant. You need to understand that there is NO majic altitude that you can do a certain turn from and have it turn out perfectly every time. Theses altitudes being mentioned should be taken as a generalization as there are so many different factors involved in a swoop. Also what one person uses as an altitude may not work out for another. The biggest thing that each of you must do is actively fly each turn to be in the proper place at the proper time (IE do not just fly to a certain altitude and turn just because you have reached that altitude). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites superstu 0 #44 June 28, 2006 QuoteYou brought down your turn initiation altitude to improve performance? there is a fine line where you can get maximum performance out of a parachute. but the short answer to your question is yes, you can start too high and not have as much performance/power if you started a little lower. HOWEVER, most people start too low, haven't done performance drills, and don't even realize they can get more performance out of their parachutes even if they're not in the corner. practice will help, getting video will help more, getting coaching from someone who knows what they're talking about (flight-1, jim slaton, ect) is the best. that post was longer than anticipated.Slip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RMURRAY 1 #45 June 28, 2006 Quote These days I do more of a lower "banging" turn I need to watch that video again.....a classic for sure. rm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 3 #46 June 29, 2006 Quote@SkymonkeyONE: You brought down your turn initiation altitude to improve performance? In a way, yes. You see, what I was doing before was a really tall carve that ended up lined up right with the gates.......most of the time. I would never, ever miss the gates, but sometimes I would still be sideways going through them. Anyway, by banging my turn a bit harder I get through with my rotation while still steep in the dive and have lots of my recovery arc left to fine tune my line-up and get my hands back to my rears sooner. Less hurried on the back end, oddly enough. I still do those very-tall turns when I want to throw a big carve across the DZ though. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #47 June 29, 2006 QuoteI still do those very-tall turns when I want to throw a big carve across the DZ though. Exactly. I love that.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bob.dino 0 #48 June 30, 2006 QuoteQuote These days I do more of a lower "banging" turn I need to watch that video again.....a classic for sure. What video? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CanuckInUSA 0 #49 June 30, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuote These days I do more of a lower "banging" turn I need to watch that video again.....a classic for sure. What video? I think they're referring to the 2001 Pond Swoop Nationals video at the Ranch. But I could be mistaken. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites johnny1488 1 #50 June 30, 2006 Here is what I got. Not the best video, but it's what I got handy. I can't speak for Mike, but this turn for me (second landing) was about 550 or maybe a hair lower. Not Mike's best, but he was running the 4 wheeler for the first time in a while. http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=4170 So are we in the corner? Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" 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marks 0 #34 June 28, 2006 QuoteAgain, i am not "that low". In fact i am not low at all. :) if two people tell you that they start same turn from the same altitude at the same DZ may be they are on to something? well you have to understand. someone says they load a VX at 2,5 and says they are doing 270's at 500ft. I don't see how they are not low. on the otherhand, why would't' i believe you? thats why i want to see a video, to better understand what is going on. there could be many factors "why you are not low". but 500ft, on a vx loaded at 2.5 with its standard trim, even with a fast 270, IS low. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frost 1 #35 June 28, 2006 sure, i totally understand. I'll try to get a ground video for you this weekend. May be Johnny has a few of his, but i dont have any of my landings... (with all this editing and uploading i may finally learn how to use the video editing software! :)) i gotta say though the numbers are a bit off in your post. Johnny loads his VX104 at 2.4 and turns from 550-600, i load vx111 at 2.1 and turn it from 550, and my VX96 at 2.4 also turned at 550 just fine I am actually surprised at the reaction - it's only logical to think that pilots would be turning around the same altitude (assuming same canopy type, same type of turn and same MSL offset of the DZ). Would be great to see a vid of someone loaded about the same on the same type of canopy doing the same type of turn and using the same tools (neptune) for comparison. First POV with fish eye is OK - i can tell when the rotation starts :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #36 June 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteAgain, i am not "that low". In fact i am not low at all. :) if two people tell you that they start same turn from the same altitude at the same DZ may be they are on to something? well you have to understand. someone says they load a VX at 2,5 and says they are doing 270's at 500ft. I don't see how they are not low. on the otherhand, why would't' i believe you? thats why i want to see a video, to better understand what is going on. there could be many factors "why you are not low". but 500ft, on a vx loaded at 2.5 with its standard trim, even with a fast 270, IS low. I am not at the high experience level of some of you guys so I hesitate to comment but my VX is loaded at 2.3 and I start 270 at 670ft using neptune alarm and eye balls. Usually hit 6 ft gates nicely. Not sure about the time to complete but it is not what I would call a slow turn or whipping it around. My buddy flies a Velocity 90 at 2.2 and when we land together he generally needs more altitude than I do - making it a real challange. rm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #37 June 28, 2006 QuoteI am not at the high experience level of some of you guys so I hesitate to comment but my VX is loaded at 2.3 and I start 270 at 670ft using neptune alarm and eye balls that sounds about right to me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #38 June 28, 2006 QuoteMike isnt in the corner when he turns. Maybe elevations are making the difference. I turn my VX 104 loaded between 2.4 and 2.5 between 500 quick and 650, pretty slow. If anyone wants to see this unbelievable video of us not being in the corner, I'll dig some up. this is where I got the numbers. I suspect the turn is usually at 650. or higher. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #39 June 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteAgain, i am not "that low". In fact i am not low at all. :) if two people tell you that they start same turn from the same altitude at the same DZ may be they are on to something? well you have to understand. someone says they load a VX at 2,5 and says they are doing 270's at 500ft. I don't see how they are not low. on the otherhand, why would't' i believe you? thats why i want to see a video, to better understand what is going on. there could be many factors "why you are not low". but 500ft, on a vx loaded at 2.5 with its standard trim, even with a fast 270, IS low. He's not low.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Treejumps 0 #40 June 28, 2006 Hey whats up Mark? As someone who flies a VX 120 at 2.5 I can tell you that it is not unusual to do a 270 from 500', although I probably do a faster 270 than most. I noticed a many years ago that my large VX did not seem to have the huge long dives that smaller ones exhibit. As canopies increase in size the amount of lift generated does not increase in a linear fashion, it increases more. How much? I can't say but it is a fairly well known fact that several canopy designers have mentioned. I can tell you for sure that I have done long carving 360's from no more that 700', and that I have been low (maybe 400') and still whipped 270's (front risers of course) and still land on rears. I used to wonder about all these guys saying that they start their turns at 800', 900' 1000' and thought they must not know where they start their turn, or that it just sounds cooler to say "I start my turn at 3500'" than "I do my typical turns at around 500 to 600'". I think it all comes down to turn style and the size and type of canopy you fly. There is no questions though, I can do a 270 under my VX at 500' and have no issues coming in on rears and getting a big swoop. Also no question, from 700' and I'll be high. Cya Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #41 June 28, 2006 I am one of those guys that used to start his turn very high by todays standards. Long harness 360's with just a bit of riser from 900 feet sometimes. These days I do more of a lower "banging" turn , but I will generally never throw a 270 a foot lower than 500 feet under my current Velo 84 if I hope to have a clean run. I will throw 360's from around 700 and inside-450's from right around 800, but those are pretty quick too. I totally agree with Tree about the larger wing using less altitude in a turn, regardless of wingload. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raymod2 1 #42 June 28, 2006 @SkymonkeyONE: You brought down your turn initiation altitude to improve performance? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spizzzarko 0 #43 June 28, 2006 All of this discussion about turn and initiation altitudes is getting to be a little redundant. You need to understand that there is NO majic altitude that you can do a certain turn from and have it turn out perfectly every time. Theses altitudes being mentioned should be taken as a generalization as there are so many different factors involved in a swoop. Also what one person uses as an altitude may not work out for another. The biggest thing that each of you must do is actively fly each turn to be in the proper place at the proper time (IE do not just fly to a certain altitude and turn just because you have reached that altitude). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
superstu 0 #44 June 28, 2006 QuoteYou brought down your turn initiation altitude to improve performance? there is a fine line where you can get maximum performance out of a parachute. but the short answer to your question is yes, you can start too high and not have as much performance/power if you started a little lower. HOWEVER, most people start too low, haven't done performance drills, and don't even realize they can get more performance out of their parachutes even if they're not in the corner. practice will help, getting video will help more, getting coaching from someone who knows what they're talking about (flight-1, jim slaton, ect) is the best. that post was longer than anticipated.Slip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #45 June 28, 2006 Quote These days I do more of a lower "banging" turn I need to watch that video again.....a classic for sure. rm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #46 June 29, 2006 Quote@SkymonkeyONE: You brought down your turn initiation altitude to improve performance? In a way, yes. You see, what I was doing before was a really tall carve that ended up lined up right with the gates.......most of the time. I would never, ever miss the gates, but sometimes I would still be sideways going through them. Anyway, by banging my turn a bit harder I get through with my rotation while still steep in the dive and have lots of my recovery arc left to fine tune my line-up and get my hands back to my rears sooner. Less hurried on the back end, oddly enough. I still do those very-tall turns when I want to throw a big carve across the DZ though. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #47 June 29, 2006 QuoteI still do those very-tall turns when I want to throw a big carve across the DZ though. Exactly. I love that.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #48 June 30, 2006 QuoteQuote These days I do more of a lower "banging" turn I need to watch that video again.....a classic for sure. What video? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #49 June 30, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuote These days I do more of a lower "banging" turn I need to watch that video again.....a classic for sure. What video? I think they're referring to the 2001 Pond Swoop Nationals video at the Ranch. But I could be mistaken. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #50 June 30, 2006 Here is what I got. Not the best video, but it's what I got handy. I can't speak for Mike, but this turn for me (second landing) was about 550 or maybe a hair lower. Not Mike's best, but he was running the 4 wheeler for the first time in a while. http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=4170 So are we in the corner? Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
