Ban using weights

[speedy 0]

Do you think that if the use of weights was banned in swoop competitions that the next generation of swoopers would start to look like sumo wrestlers?

Just a thought.

Should weights be banned?

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Should weights be banned?

No not at all ... why do you think they should?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[CanopyPiloting 0]

Classes, not a ban. The issue is current agenda for the World Swooping Association committee and there is live poll for pilots on the home page at www.canopypiloting.com

[frost 1]

A quote from WSA main page:
".... The WSA provides guidance and advice to its members around the world on matters such as competition, judging, coaching, swooping schools, anti doping and drug testing and other areas of development of the sport."

LOL. Are you serious?

SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.

[ntacfreefly 0]

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anti doping and drug testing

If you want the sport to be taken seriously. Yes.

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[frost 1]

may be, yes. but doing that will cut the number of world class competitors in half... if not more

SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.

[LouDiamond 1]

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Should weights be banned?

I was talking with several of the guys on the swoop tour at SDChicago about this. With some people strapping as much as 70lbs of lead to themselves, several said they thought it would be a good idea to have a class system where weights were not allowed.Classes such as no weights/crossbraced/ non crossbraced classes would keep things realistic and safe for those people progressing in the discipline. I don't think there should be a ban on weights but I do think there should be a limit on the amount of weight a person can use just for safety sake.Otherwise it's only a matter of time before we see someone with 100lbs hanging off their hips.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[ntacfreefly 0]

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may be, yes. but doing that will cut the number of world class competitors in half... if not more

So that means we should accept it? If the sport is going to be taken seriously we need to accept that certain things will not be acceptable (as it is in other recognized sports). There are penalties for use in other sport arenas so I fail to see why this should be any different. I'm sure lots of olympic bodybuilders would like to use steriods. Granted I realize you're not necessarily talking about performance enhancing drugs but still I really can't see why we should be exempt.

Blues.

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[frost 1]

That depends on how you define "performance enhancing drugs" ;)

I am with you on that whole notion of "keeping it real", but i think it's unrealistic to expect skydivers to quit smoking pot and doing coke :))

SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.

[mattjw916 2]

Maybe they can just have another "class" for those that are drunk, stoned, or coked up... /joking

Anyway, it does seem recently that more and more people are loading up with a lot of lead. I mean really, if you have like 700-900 jumps, do you really think w/l is really that critical? Plus I'd hate to have to chop with 20-40lbs of lead on.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[davelepka 4]

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Should weights be banned?

Banned? I don't know about banning them, but they certainly are misunderstood outside of the competition arena. People are waaaay to ready to strap on some lead soleley for upping the WL, and it comes from watching the pro's weight up.

Maybe banning them in the CPC wouldn't be a bad idea. This would force would-be pro swoopers to develop their skills without lead, Sure they could jump lead recreationally, but if you were serious about competing, you;d want to practice in the same configuration you'd be competing.

Drug testing for swoopers is fine as long you are looking for performce enhancing drug. Roids have no place in swooping. Crack, on the other hand is fine, provided you're not high when you're competing, in that case you (or the pilot) has a problem with the FAA.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I am with you on that whole notion of "keeping it real", but i think it's unrealistic to expect skydivers to quit smoking pot and doing coke

If/when swooping becomes the high profile sport in something like the Olympics, then yes those wishing to participate at that level should be clean just like all the other sports. Those with the proper motivation will take the appropriate steps. Those without it will continue to do what they do and not be allowed to compete at the elite level.

Now where did I put my bag and my pipe?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Maybe banning them in the CPC wouldn't be a bad idea.

Based on past conversations with him, Jim knows way more about what's likely to happen (like various swooping classes existing), but for the top CPC competitors, why do you say that they can't wear weights? Sure I don't want to be wearing 70 lbs as I don't think I have the skill and/or experience to be loading up that high. But the CPC is the feeder system for the future PST pilots and if the top rank CPC pilots are to ever realize their dreams of competiting against the pros, they need to be flying like the pros. Why do you want to hold people back? Swooping is NOT safe, but risks are managable for those who take it seriously, have sought coaching and dedicate jumps towards enhacing their canopy control skills. Remember the CPC is new and I think we're about to see competitive swooping evolve into something we never thought was possible only a few short years ago. I am curious to see what the WSA comes up with with their various competitve swooping class categories.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[davelepka 4]

If you read the top of my response, I state my feelings that jumpers are turing to weights much to early. Not allowing them in the CPC would help to curb this.

First off, the CPC is designed to be entry-level swooper friendly. I don't belive that entry-level swoopers should be jumping with weights, and if the top CPC guys are, the pressure to be competitive will push the new guys to weight up as well. If the CPC is entry level, lets keep it that way.

As for the top CPC guys, when they move to the pro ranks, they can weight up if they like. Will it be new for them? Yes. Will there be an adjustment period? Sure. Should the top CPC guys expect to be competitive with the established pros in their first pro meet? No fuckin way. Adjusting to using weights will be one of many changes the CPC guys will have to manage when they go pro.

[marks 0]

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First off, the CPC is designed to be entry-level swooper friendly. I don't belive that entry-level swoopers should be jumping with weights, and if the top CPC guys are, the pressure to be competitive will push the new guys to weight up as well. If the CPC is entry level, lets keep it that way.

yup, i think this is the way it should be. also zone accuract for cpc pilots needs to be into the wind, or within 45 deg of the wind.

[dharma1976 0]

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That depends on how you define "performance enhancing drugs" ;)

I am with you on that whole notion of "keeping it real", but i think it's unrealistic to expect skydivers to quit smoking pot and doing coke :))

Hey man I did it ;)

in fact I took up skydiving to help me deal with giving up cocaine ;)

ah yes that was me before skydiving smoking DMT and going to the bar.

hehe

Dave

Could you imagine me on coke mike ;)

or dancing around with a cooler filled with mushrooms

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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the CPC is designed to be entry-level swooper

I guess we have different view of what the CPC is. You seem to view it as as an entry level to swooping thing. I view it as a place to gain competiton experience running courses that will prepare the swooper for what the pros do. People need to be able to make the entry gates in practice before they attempt to make them in the high stress environment of competition and of course they need to be able to swoop safely before they ever thing of trying to make entry gates in practice.

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I don't belive that entry-level swoopers should be jumping with weights, and if the top CPC guys are, the pressure to be competitive will push the new guys to weight up as well.

So I guess in your mind CPCers shouldn't be allowed to use RDS systems and HMA lines as well and what about newer canopy designs like the JVX? People need to be honest with themselves when it comes to their skill and experience levels. People need to possess the appropriate swooping skills before they ever dream of competiting, and then they need to ensure that they are current and have been doing the appropriate training before they start wearing weights. I agree that a swooper shouldn't just put the weight on because their competition does. But at some point the swooper may have the skill and experience to handle the added wing loading. The skill level of the competitors at last months CPC Championships was outstanding. It was clear that a handful of guys were much better than everyone else, but that didn't mean that the field wasn't full of talented canopy pilots. Do we have the skill and experience of the pros? No ... but that doesn't mean that we weren't flying really well (I was there, I saw the skill level of my competitive peers ... you weren't there so to say that CPCers don't have the skill or experience to wear weights is wrong). Remember this was a national event where the best amateur swoopers in the country met to compete.

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Should the top CPC guys expect to be competitive with the established pros in their first pro meet? No fuckin way.

I disagree. If/when I'm ever good enough to qualify on the PST, I won't be going into my first competitions expecting to win (how naive would that be). But I would be going in expecting to be competitive and expecting not to embarass myself. I did learn this year during the CPC Championships/GoFast games, that I'm not ready yet to be competing against the pros (and there is no way in hell you will see me wearing 50+ lbs of weight any time soon). But you better believe that if/when the times does come I will do the best that I can possibly do in order to be as competitive as I possible can be and I feel comfortable swooping right now wearing my 20 lbs of weight which brings my wingloading up closer to the more optimal 2.2 wing loading.

Once again, I don't know exactly what the WSA organization has planned for the future of competitive swooping. But I think we're going to see many new classes of competitive swooping categories pop up and the prospective competitive swooper will be able to choose which class they feel they will belong in. Some of these categories will likely allow their competitors to wear weights up to a certain limit and some will require no weights and will even likely require non cross-braced canopies. This is an exciting time to be a competitive swooper. Please don't try holding back the people who take this shit seriously and who have dedicated time towards enhancing our skills. I don't have a whole lot of freefall time this summer, but I did make about 500 jumps refining my swooping skills as I'm sure many of my other competitive peers did as well.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Anvilbrother 0]

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Crack, on the other hand is fine

????!!!!1 Yea ookkkk......

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[davelepka 4]

Here's the thing, the CPC 'mission stateemnt' was to make swooping accessable to more folks through having more comps aournd, and rules designed to make it easier to be competitive (higher entry gates and the like).

The CPC is also the feeder series for the PST, so evryone who wants to go pro, has to compete in and win in the CPC. This ensures that there will be some high tatent guys in the CPC. These guys could have passed the pro qualifier without the CPC, but they don't have that chance. This is one of the problems with the CPC being open to entry level guys, they also have to compete with some of the bigger guns.

As far as equipment restrictions, I don't think the RDS has a place in the CPC either. It does pose an additional risk during the jump, and at the level of swooping found in the CPC, it's not needed.

Line choice is irrelevant. Many canopies come with HMA line from the facotry, so you can't stop that.

Now back to the weight issue. The real problem is that you can't regluate what poeple will do. A young swooper who wants to jump a tiny canopy might be frowned upon, or even not permitted ot jump it in competition or at some DZ's. But with weights, who can tell if a guy has on 10 lbs, or 30? Better to just not have it as an option.

I never commented on the level of guys at the CPC finals. For the record, I won my district, and I kick ass. My comment is that they should do it without the lead to both level the playing field, and discourage the new guys from weighting up.

Read the CPC website, it was meant to bring new guys into the sport. A solid 90, with good accuracy can get you through the course and scoring points on every jump. Just beacsue you can do that does not mean you're ready for lead. By the tme you are ready, you should be top five in your regoin, and ready to move up to the big time anyway.

Keep in mind that swooping is super new. Changes will need to be made to keep it together for the long run. Aside from the exosting dangers of swooping, and learning swooping, and competition swooping and learning competition swooping, adding lead to the issue is an un-needed additional risk. The more we support adding lead, the more newer swoopers will want to turn to it while they are just learning.

I'd say that this season marks the officia esatblishment of thel use of lead and canopy size to maximize performacne. Now that we know how to use it, is it unreasonable to expect that now we need to learn how NOT to use it in swooping?

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I never commented on the level of guys at the CPC finals. For the record, I won my district, and I kick ass. My comment is that they should do it without the lead to both level the playing field, and discourage the new guys from weighting up.

And I'm sure I would have included you in the list of talented amateur swoopers had you been here with the rest of us (once again the amateur skill level at the CPC Championships was very good). I still believe though that people need to be honest with their own skill and experience levels as to what sort of gear configuration they wish to use. I didn't start using weight until the end of the CPC season (we'll that's not 100% as I did wear some in our first comp because I was flying an underloaded wing). But for most of the season I was jumping without weight while many of my local competitors wore them. But after a summer of training virtually every day, I started wearing 20 lbs to bring my wing loading up to the more optimal levels and I don't regret it one bit. I was able to bring my swooping to a new personal level because of this. But I never would have dreamed of doing this had I not been as current as I was at the time.

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the CPC 'mission stateemnt' was to make swooping accessable to more folks through having more comps aournd. Read the CPC website, it was meant to bring new guys into the sport.

And people wanting to get into the CPC need to get that "I'll only compete if I can win" mentality out of their heads.

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The more we support adding lead, the more newer swoopers will want to turn to it while they are just learning.

Well the message needs to get out that people shouldn't be using lead while they are in the initial stages of learning how to swoop competitively. In this case I am in complete agreement with you (so we're not as far apart as we think).

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Keep in mind that swooping is super new. Changes will need to be made to keep it together for the long run.

Remember this was the first year of the CPC. Lessons were learned and I'm sure we will see some changes to the sport (like the various different competition categories). So let's be patient and see what the WSA says. If they tell me that I can't wear weight, then that's okay as long as it's across the board. But I don't think you're going to see that. Some classes will likely not be allowed to wear weight or use a cross-braced canopy, some classes will be allowed to wear weight but only up to a certain limit and for the elite swoopers of the world ... well I guess the sky is the limit.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[davelepka 4]

Now of they want to split the CPC into classes, thats a whole different story. In that case, the top class the CPC could do whatever they want, as long as there are a different set of rules for the entry level guys.

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I still believe though that people need to be honest with their own skill and experience levels as to what sort of gear configuration they wish to use.

Keep in mind that this statement can be 100% applied to the selection of canopy model and size, and you see how poorly people handle that sitiuation. I would guess that a large percenatge of swoopers under 1000 jumps are jumping a canopy beyond their ability.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Now of they want to split the CPC into classes, thats a whole different story. In that case, the top class the CPC could do whatever they want, as long as there are a different set of rules for the entry level guys.

Well let's just wait to see what the WSA has to say about the future of competitive swooping. Remember (like every one else), I have my opinions about this sport and who's to say that my opinions are correct and are in line of what the WSA is thinking.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[raymod2 1]

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I don't belive that entry-level swoopers should be jumping with weights

yup, i think this is the way it should be.

Don't you wear weights, Mark?

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also zone accuract for cpc pilots needs to be into the wind, or within 45 deg of the wind.

I don't agree with this at all. One of my favorite things about the CPC Championships was having to deal with changing upwind/crosswind/downwind conditions. I also don't understand why you would advocate eliminating crosswind or downwind landings in zone accuracy but not for speed or distance.

[marks 0]

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I don't belive that entry-level swoopers should be jumping with weights

yup, i think this is the way it should be.

Don't you wear weights, Mark?

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also zone accuract for cpc pilots needs to be into the wind, or within 45 deg of the wind.

I don't agree with this at all. One of my favorite things about the CPC Championships was having to deal with changing upwind/crosswind/downwind conditions. I also don't understand why you would advocate eliminating crosswind or downwind landings in zone accuracy but not for speed or distance.

there was some peeps that scared me, and the judges, during the downwind zone acc.

yes i do wear weights. only because i have to. because my competition is, and i know my competition, so i have to wear weights also to be competitive.

this year was the first year i wore weights. and like i said. it was because i had to. and weights dont hurt me, they help. alot of peeps are hurting there swoops because of weights.

but im no longer going to be in the cpc. i would be sandbagging the comp. if i was, so i was told.

the downwind zone acc. was fun and challenging. but you have to admit, it wasnt for all the pilots there. it was a little scary.

[superstu 0]

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but im no longer going to be in the cpc. i would be sandbagging the comp. if i was, so i was told.

What do you mean by sandbagging?

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