Cobalt

[dharma1976 0]

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Now that this guy has your absolute attention (with all means) I want to consider some advice from all of you. Like Peej I have a hornet 170 that I have been jumping for about 200 jumps with a wing loading of almost 1.3. I just ordered a crossfire2 150 (that I will be loading at 1.5), which I plan to receive and jump some time in December with some 50 more jumps on the hornet. Do you think that this downsize is way too much. I also jump a space 160, which is similar to a cobalt. Please let me know what you guys think. I have been thinking of going to the scott miller course before I get to jump that 150.
I also would like to now what happened to you Peej when you jumped that 135, which I will never do.

all I have to say to that is that obviously Icarus didnt know you had less than 500 jumps since that is their reccomended jump numbers for that canopy.

this cnaopy is no joke...

any little motion you make under canopy will be translated into movement in some way in the canopy...

if your one leg strap is shorter than the other after you adjust it, that will adjust your landing.

I reccomend that you take a lot of time learnign to fly slowly, btw I have notice you can get a much longer swoop by carving a nice slow turn.

I currently load a crossfire2 129 at around 1.6

Cheers

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[guizgabriel 0]

Guys....
I already said...I do not make swoop!!! I only wanted information on as to learn one day!!!!!
On wing load: previously it was 1.18, then I moved for 1.4....sincerely, I did not feel difference.
I want thus to continue more for 300, 400 jumps...that i must make in training in the US.
On canopy: I thought that cobatl if compared with sabre2
I only came to search information....

[nicknitro71 0]

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Guys....
I already said...I do not make swoop!!! I only wanted information on as to learn one day!!!!!
On wing load: previously it was 1.18, then I moved for 1.4....sincerely, I did not feel difference.
I want thus to continue more for 300, 400 jumps...that i must make in training in the US.
On canopy: I thought that cobatl if compared with sabre2
I only came to search information....

1. If you don't swoop why are you jumping such a wing with such a high WL for your experience?

2. If you went from 1.18 to 1.4 and did not feel the differece then why in the hell did you go 1.4 and stay with it??? This also tells us how sensitive you are under canopy, or unsensitive for that matter.

3. If you don't swoop then do yourself a favor and get a canopy like a Safire2/Pilot/Sabre2/ in the 190 range.

4. You are loading a 7-cell F-111 canopy at 1.53 the greatest good luck after your first cutaway, really.

5. I'm not trying being an ass here, but having been there, getting fucked up it's not fun, by any means.

6. If you are just looking for info here is a great place to start:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=search;

Memento Audere Semper

903

[guizgabriel 0]

Before i used a spectre....but it came very to the soil during the landing...I did not like none little it canopy. Then I tested springo of a friend....the landings had been much more calm and safe!!! With this i decided to use it and i never had no type of problem in 70 jumps.
I am a careful guy....but with the time i want to learn swoop!! But not now

[nicknitro71 0]

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I am a careful guy

No, you are not, don't fool yourself.

You got 100 jumps, load a very high performance main canopy @ 1.42 and a reserve @ 1.53, this is not by any means being careful.

Again a Safire2/Pilot/Sabre2 in the 190 range will give you tons of performance and great landings.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[guizgabriel 0]

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Quote

I am a careful guy

Again a Safire2/Pilot/Sabre2 in the 190 range will give you tons of performance and great landings.

Thanks nicknitro71...this information that i needed!!!
But i continue affirming...I am careful.
I have friends that they use a katana with 400 jumps with 1.8 wing load....how is made the progression in the US?
Thanks a lot

[AggieDave 6]

***I have friends that they use a katana with 400 jumps with 1.8 wing load

I've had similar friends. I've seen a few of those same friends buried after screwing up, I've seen one get paralized and another that it took nearly 2 years to get back to nearly normal.

Just because people do it, does NOT mean that its a good idea to follow their lead.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[m1keymike 0]

hi, my progression was fast for my experience level. i was jumping a sabre 150 at 60 jumps, wing loading about 1.3. i worked on a dropzone and was taken under the wing of one of the uk's best canopy pilots. by 150 jumps i was doing 90's and on a fandango 135. by workin on a dropzone full time, i was lucky to have a wealth of experience on tap, and also ive seen some very sobering and eye opening accidents. by 300 jumps i was doing 180's and have always treated it with respect and under strict coaching and overwatch. i have also tried other canopies aswell, stilletos, springos etc. i am now on a canopy i feel comfortable with a faqtor 135 loaded at 1.5 and i have no desire to change it for a long long time. i wont tell you that your going to fast but, will advise you to be careful! talk to swoopers who know what they are doing, preferably instructors.watch them, video them and study what they do. read articles online and in magazines and dont just pay lip service to it. theres alot of people who will give you advice and some will be talkin shit, be careful and enjoy.

[guizgabriel 0]

Hi m1keymike.
Thanks for help me!!
My progression was fast as your...i think that each person has its time of learning...always respecting the danger!!
I talk sufficiently with the best brazilian swoopers.
where i can obtain articles, videos and information?
One more time..thanks!

[YISkyDive 0]

As some one who started out wanting to swoop, I was a bitch to deal with. At 45 jumps I was doing double fronts, and 100 jumps I was doing 90s, by 150 I put myself in such a corner that I canned my swooping plans-

then i became a better canopy pilot. I have an awsome mentor, somebody that I respect as much as my father who is a high number jumper, but has choosen to stay away from swooping. He has guided me well- beating me up when i needed it, and offering feedback and support when i desireved.

After putting myself in a dangerous corner which i was in a curled up PLF position to miss the gound- I realized that regaurdless of who you talk to, what they tell you, and when they tell it to you you will never ever listen.

You've been told- dont jump your current canopy- yet you still do. You've been told to upsize, yet you will not. You've heard all the things you should do, but the personal belief and right of mind is that you will follow your set path, till a changing experience comes a long and either gives you a good scare, or metal. Both of which are, unfortunetly, involved in learning to swoop.

The key to swooping is not making a turn, the canopy, or the recovery arc of the parachute.. that is ALL actually secondary. The key to making yourself a better canopy pilot is to be able to judge when to and when not to swoop.. whether that means not swooping on a praticular landing, or not swooping till you meet a certain standard.

Let me put it this way- the worlds best canopy pilot will tell you to A) not swoop now, B) not swoop now under that canopy. Your mind has not become accustomed to low level flight, and turns close to our bouncer.. the earth. It was explained to me, by one of the better canopy pilots I know.. It takes 500 jumps to know A canopy.. It takes 1000 Jumps to Master a canopy. Have you made 500 jumps? Do you know your canopy? Can you explain or better yet fly it in all sorts of diffrent behaviral conditions? I'll let you answer that.

In this day and age, the right to break yourself exists freely to all those that choose to follow an aggresive path. I did it. I got lucky... heres why. I work 7 days a week May through September on a busy dropzone. I jump 300 skydives in 6 calander months.. with little to no "working" skydives. I also jumped a 1.07:1 loaded Triathlon.. thats where I learned to read and understand the ground. If I tried to learn swooping under my Diablo 1.3:1 the only thing that would keep me from becoming a statistic would be luck.. and luck has an unfortunte way of balancing itself out.. does the worlds best poker player win every tournement? does the worlds best race car driver win every race? Again, I'll let you answer.

The bottom line is, when you think you have the skills to save yourself in a shit out of luck situation.. not only are you blind, ingnortant, and foolish, but you are also dangersous and life threating to yourself and those around you. Remember your skills will not save you- your decisions to make or not to make certain choices will save you- and unfortunetly- wainting to swoop and upsizing is potentially the right choice. The worlds best canopy pilots would probably tell you that. Remember, to Femur is not a verb.

Get another canopy, funds permiting. Rent gear if you need to get your skills up- do the downsizing checklist forward and aft. Dont land on rears once and say "I can land on rears!!" I landed on rears 30 times in two weeks to fully learn the feeling and understanding of why and why not things happen. Learn the importance of your canopy forgetting about front risers, swooping, and low level flight. Once you can make the Pees everytime, flying a pattern and not making low turns, then you can open your mind again to swooping. Its a natural progression, you need acruacy to swoop- or your just a WDI when you make your turn. I think you get the point.


Take from the people that have spoken to what you will, but The First Person in the world to tell you not to swoop, is also the author of the best canopy control book avaliable. That has to mean something.


good luck, and be safe. Remember, the ground is patient, and it will wait for you to make the mistake that your "calm" and "coached" ways may lead you to make one day.

[dharma1976 0]

Quote

As some one who started out wanting to swoop, I was a bitch to deal with. At 45 jumps I was doing double fronts, and 100 jumps I was doing 90s, by 150 I put myself in such a corner that I canned my swooping plans-

then i became a better canopy pilot. I have an awsome mentor, somebody that I respect as much as my father who is a high number jumper, but has choosen to stay away from swooping. He has guided me well- beating me up when i needed it, and offering feedback and support when i desireved.

After putting myself in a dangerous corner which i was in a curled up PLF position to miss the gound- I realized that regaurdless of who you talk to, what they tell you, and when they tell it to you you will never ever listen.

You've been told- dont jump your current canopy- yet you still do. You've been told to upsize, yet you will not. You've heard all the things you should do, but the personal belief and right of mind is that you will follow your set path, till a changing experience comes a long and either gives you a good scare, or metal. Both of which are, unfortunetly, involved in learning to swoop.

The key to swooping is not making a turn, the canopy, or the recovery arc of the parachute.. that is ALL actually secondary. The key to making yourself a better canopy pilot is to be able to judge when to and when not to swoop.. whether that means not swooping on a praticular landing, or not swooping till you meet a certain standard.

Let me put it this way- the worlds best canopy pilot will tell you to A) not swoop now, B) not swoop now under that canopy. Your mind has not become accustomed to low level flight, and turns close to our bouncer.. the earth. It was explained to me, by one of the better canopy pilots I know.. It takes 500 jumps to know A canopy.. It takes 1000 Jumps to Master a canopy. Have you made 500 jumps? Do you know your canopy? Can you explain or better yet fly it in all sorts of diffrent behaviral conditions? I'll let you answer that.

In this day and age, the right to break yourself exists freely to all those that choose to follow an aggresive path. I did it. I got lucky... heres why. I work 7 days a week May through September on a busy dropzone. I jump 300 skydives in 6 calander months.. with little to no "working" skydives. I also jumped a 1.07:1 loaded Triathlon.. thats where I learned to read and understand the ground. If I tried to learn swooping under my Diablo 1.3:1 the only thing that would keep me from becoming a statistic would be luck.. and luck has an unfortunte way of balancing itself out.. does the worlds best poker player win every tournement? does the worlds best race car driver win every race? Again, I'll let you answer.

The bottom line is, when you think you have the skills to save yourself in a shit out of luck situation.. not only are you blind, ingnortant, and foolish, but you are also dangersous and life threating to yourself and those around you. Remember your skills will not save you- your decisions to make or not to make certain choices will save you- and unfortunetly- wainting to swoop and upsizing is potentially the right choice. The worlds best canopy pilots would probably tell you that. Remember, to Femur is not a verb.

Get another canopy, funds permiting. Rent gear if you need to get your skills up- do the downsizing checklist forward and aft. Dont land on rears once and say "I can land on rears!!" I landed on rears 30 times in two weeks to fully learn the feeling and understanding of why and why not things happen. Learn the importance of your canopy forgetting about front risers, swooping, and low level flight. Once you can make the Pees everytime, flying a pattern and not making low turns, then you can open your mind again to swooping. Its a natural progression, you need acruacy to swoop- or your just a WDI when you make your turn. I think you get the point.


Take from the people that have spoken to what you will, but The First Person in the world to tell you not to swoop, is also the author of the best canopy control book avaliable. That has to mean something.


good luck, and be safe. Remember, the ground is patient, and it will wait for you to make the mistake that your "calm" and "coached" ways may lead you to make one day.

That was awesome and well put sir...

and you wouldnt be talking about brian germaine would you ;)

I remember him comign to sussex righ tbefore I broke my leg and he and greg rau (spelling) were both laughing and shaking thier heads at us younger guy sall rushing to downsize and showing us what could be done with a 190 specter :-P

it was great!

Cheers

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[cobaltdan 0]

if you are safe under a sabre1/2 or safire1/2 then you will absolutely be equally safe under a cobalt at the same wing loading. the space canopy was identical in planform and airfoil to the cobalt and has a flawless six year track record as a begineer to intermediate canopy.

with that said, as everyone is pointing out your wingloading is high for some one at your level. my advice is that if you are not 100% comfortable performing a downwind, crosswind and off airport landing on your curent canopy, if you cant safely fly that canpopy hard, then your not ready to downsize.

i understand that you may be bored with your current canopy, but thats where canopy instruction comes in, or if you must switch at least demo canopies at a conservative wingloading.

with a little instruction on how to safely practice and push your wing, i think you might be really blown away at how much performance you have left untapped.

for kicks ask an experienced swooper at your dz to jump your canopy and show you just what it can do...

have fun, be safe.

Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)

[guizgabriel 0]

Thanks for the contribution Daniel
In 70 jumps I never had problems with this canopy....I always effected safe landings.

[marcin 0]

You always make safe landings.... Yes, for the past 110 or so jumps. It really is not enough to make any conclusions. But as it was said, if you dont believe so many experienced people telling you you should be jumping smaller canopy, than nothing will convince you.

It's like trying a 1300 ccm motor bike with a fresh driving licence. You can go slowly and safely for some time, but why do you wanna have a 1300 ccm bike if you dont go 180 mph and bank in the corners at 45 degrees?

Why do you need a 1.6 loaded canopy if you dont perform 270 degree turns to land and swoop 50 meters? Its like driving a powerful motorbike at a speed of 50 mph, only that you can stop the bike any time. You wont be able to stop your canopy in the mid-air and because in certain emergency situation it will go down really fast (say you have to turn suddenly to avoid another canopy close to the ground) it will be so much more dangerous than a lighter loaded canopy.

You only get the negatives of a high loading (line twists may not be recoverable, its more difficult to get back from a long spot etc., no-wind landings require running out ot sliding on your butt, less margin for error) and you cant use the only positive (ability to swoop longer after aggressive turn). You will achieve so much more with say 1.2 or 1.3 (already too high for 110 jups by some standards) skillfully piloted.

OK, answering your questions: Springo will open beautifully if fitted with the larger (factory) slider. It will swoop well with the carving approach if your brake lines are long enough (they're normally too short), meaning you will first start to feel resistance at braking somewhat above shoulder level.

Cobalt: flies differently than Springo (I now jump Atair Impulse which is identical to Cobalt) it stays longer in the dive and has a higher rate of descent than Springo. It also swoops further. However it is pretty sensitive, especially at higher wing loadings, to assymetrical body position and may give you a lot of line twists (in my approx. 700 jumps on Impulse 120 and 105 I had like 20-30 line twist, but only had to cut away one - last week).

Remember - you don't have the experience to understand that you don't have the experience. Have some trust in other people.

Stay safe.

[guizgabriel 0]

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OK, answering your questions: Springo will open beautifully if fitted with the larger (factory) slider. It will swoop well with the carving approach if your brake lines are long enough (they're normally too short), meaning you will first start to feel resistance at braking somewhat above shoulder level.
Stay safe.

Ok man....temporary i abandoned the idea of cobalt. But what it can be made on the brake lines of springo?
Thanks

[dragon2 0]

The control range of French canopies is always short, but you can check the brake line length like this:

Check your canopy in full flight, there should be a bow in the steering lines. Now pull down both your frontrisers as low as you can and check again, there should still be a little slack in the steering lines, or at least, you shouldn't be pulling on the tail. Usually, esp with PD canopies, you CAN'T pull the frontrisers down to your chest because the brake setting won't allow it and the canopy will start to buck because you're telling the nose to dive and the tail to brake, at the same time. That's definately not helping your swoop any of course.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[marcin 0]

I am not saying you should abandon the idea of Cobalt. Its a good canopy. If you refuse to jump anything bigger than Springo 160, than getting Cobalt 150 will keep you as safe (or unsafe).

Cobalt feels "bigger" than most similarly sized other elliptical 9 cell. Turns will be less twitchy than springo, but it will dive longer and swoop further if you pilot it properly.

You can check your lines as Dragon recommended, if theyre short, get longer ones (possibly by 10-15 cm)

[nicknitro71 0]

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Cobalt feels "bigger"

Because they are bigger or other canopies smaller. Atair uses a different method for calculating the area that is IMO more accurate by the way. A Cobalt 95 measures similarly to a Stiletto 107 for instance.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[guizgabriel 0]

Good information.....I still will have a cobalt!!!!!

[voidlizard 0]

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Because they are bigger or other canopies smaller. Atair uses a different method for calculating the area that is IMO more accurate by the way. A Cobalt 95 measures similarly to a Stiletto 107 for instance.

I have already heard this before. So, if the Cobalt 95 is similar to Stiletto 107, then probably Cobalt 120 is similar to a something 135-ft. I have a rig designed for 120-ft mains and some time ago I have jumped with 135ft Spectre - and it was very hard to pack 7-cell 135ft canopy into my d-bag, and the rig looked very ... specific after that. But I had no problem to put Cobalt 120 there. So, for me it's obvious that Cobalt 120 is much smaller that 135-ft 7-cell PD. I also packed Safire 119 in my dbag, and it was similar to Cobalt 120. Anyway, it's easy to compare if you have Stilletto and Cobalts on dropzone.

Stilletto 107 and Cobalt 95 fly quite different with the same weight under them, aren't them?

[marcin 0]

Having flown both Impulse/Cobalt 95 and Stiletto 107 I did not have the impression that we are talking same size canopy. Completely different animals and certainly did not feel equally "big".

[nicknitro71 0]

I don't' want to make this a pissin' contest...

However:

1. Atair uses a different method of measuring canopies than the PIA standards. The method they use produces sizes about 7% bigger than if they used the PIA method. Drop a line to Stane at Atair to find out more about their method.

2. I was just talking about sizes here not flying characteristics. If you think two canopies should fly alike given the same size you are wrong. A Stiletto is a completely different canopy than an Alpha/Cobalt even if the size was exactly the same. Just look at the line attachment points and where the jumper is located relative to the canopy, for instance. Also, next time you have a chance overlap a Stiletto 97 and a Cobalt 95 and let me know which one is bigger. Then overlap the Cobalt 95 with a Stiletto 107.

3. I fly Alphas (the daddy of the Cobalt) and I would not trade them for any new non-x-braced canopies on the market, ANY!

Memento Audere Semper

903

[marks 0]

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3. I fly Alphas (the daddy of the Cobalt) and I would not trade them for any new non-x-braced canopies on the market, ANY!

not any?

[marcin 0]

[/If you think two canopies should fly alike given the same size you are wrong.]***

Not really what I think. That's why I wrote it flies "bigger". It is less twitchy and sensitive to toggle input. It also does not drop you as abruptly when the speed of the swoop decreases.

I've actually been to their factory in Slovenia twice and met Stane on several ocasions. He never mentioned the sizing issue and I never bothered to compare, but you may be right. I'll try to do a comparison with friend's stiletto, but my 105 and his 107 pack similar (OK, PD nylon is more difficult to pack)

[Brains 2]

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3. I fly Alphas (the daddy of the Cobalt) and I would not trade them for any new non-x-braced canopies on the market, ANY!

not any?

I am a nobody when it comes to canopy flight, but i got rid of my crossfire2 in order to keep my H-modded cobalt. I want to try a Katana out, but it would have to be nothing short of F'in spectacular to make me give up my cobalt.

Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you.