Approach setup

[LearningTOfly 0]

For reference only- how, when you were beginning to swoop/ carve, did you set up your approaches? What altitude did you initiate your turns? What was the key for you, personally, to finding the right altitude at the right time?

For reference- I'm working on carving 180 approaches, and am looking for pointers and advice as I'm progressing. I'm finding myself consistently high after completing the turn and having to front riser back and forth to get down along final. My plan to fix this is to try adding a little opposite front riser (additionally) and widen the arc a bit and allow more time in a steeper descent. Reefing on a single riser more (hook turn) is something I'd like to get to, but for now I'm keeping clear of that option.

Oh, and please- positive advice only- I've been through the "swooping is evil if you don't have 400 jumps, and you're going to crater" bit before, understand it clearly, disagree with it, and really don't have patience for it anymore. But, I am looking forwards to hearing what tips/ advice/ pointers are out there.

[YISkyDive 0]

Really quick-

is your profile up too date?

2)

Before 180s, one should have [at least]

50 consistent double front approches..
50 - 100 consistent 45- 90 degree approches..

and then maybe you can loook at 180s. If people have talked to you about the "crater" thing, listen. It's not because they want to see you not have fun, its because they want you to be safe, and learn while having fun.

altitude wise-

(to answer your question) changes dramtically changes between canopy to canopy. People use an accurate altimiter to aid in site picture, which is what pilots use to judge altitude loss..

brian germain's book is a great work that, if serious, about swooping you should pick up and read. he discusses this.


i would highly recommend looking to staff on your DZ that execute good swoops for advice, and to heed both their compliments, just as their warnings.

stay safe, and enjoy,

dave.

[LearningTOfly 0]

Thanks for the info.

My profile is up to date- the only negative feedback I've recieved is from these forums- at the DZ(s) no-one has commented either way on my choice of approaches- I take silence to imply consent, for now.

I do not have that number of double front approaches or 90's, but I find both to be readily controllable so long as you stay ahead of the canopy. That being said, an approach where I am not using fronts up until the flare is an anomaly. Not to be jumping the gun, I'm still practicing both as conditions dictate (traffic, wind, obstacles, etc) and by no means practice any of the three in an unsafe manner (maneuvers are rather benign at this point- ie shallow carves). I'm flying 1:1 loaded canopies- non elliptical.

At the DZs, I see the swoopers come in, but see no real method to the madness- the circuits are legible but sloppy, for instance. Still looking for the method, and I'm consulting the DZ staff and jumpers... at the same time with such advice- a liability issue does come up, but that's a whole 'nother thread. I take sole responsibility for my ventures...

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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how, when you were beginning to swoop/ carve, did you set up your approaches? What altitude did you initiate your turns?

The setup is more than just altitude. The setup requires you to get yourself and your canopy into a certain area of sky, jump after jump no matter what variable weather conditions you experience and air traffic you encounter. It's not easy reading the weather and not crashing into your fellow skydiver (or worse ... the ground). Knowing how to setup for a swoop is all about knowing the slow flight characteristics of your canopy.

Plus a lot of what you ask has to do with the wingloading, density altitude, type of canopy and canopy control. One must learn the performance envelope of a canopy before one starts swooping low to the ground. To skip this step is to fly by "trial and error" and error has a way of messing people up very fast.

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What was the key for you, personally, to finding the right altitude at the right time?

Every jump is different. It's all about knowing how to control your canopy and the only way to do this is through experience. Learning to swoop takes hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of ... well hopefully you get the picture.

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Oh, and please- positive advice only

I'm no canopy nazi. If you want to swoop, cool!!! But at your jump experience, you are rolling the dice. You may survive, but that will depend on what you do tomorrow.

If you want to become a swooper:

1) Become educated in canopy control from credible coaches.

2) Dedicate jumps towards learning canopy control.

3) Learn the slow flight characteristics of your canopy before you start seeking speed.

4) Put hundreds and hundreds of jumps on larger canopies before you downsize to the next smaller size and don't make huge downsizing steps or canopy type steps.

5) Be patient.

To skip any one of these steps makes you a test pilot, rolling the dice with your life. I haven't been in the sport all that long and I did downsize more aggressive than many would have recommended. But I have always been current. I have been formally trained in canopy control on more than one occasion and I started off swooping large canopies putting hundreds of jumps on each canopy and I never made huge downsizing steps before I got to where I currently am and who knows where swooping will take me. It could be fame, it could be mediocracy or maybe the grave. Anyone of us could mess yourselves up swooping one day. Never said this shit was easy nor safe. But at least I've survived this long (1000+ jumps) without a serious injury and it's because I recognized that skipping steps towards becoming a swooper wasn't a wise move. Be smart dude. Swooping rocks, but it's very unforgiving. Unless you're ready to pound out a shit load of jumps in a short period of time, you really should back off on inducing speed until you've learned the slow flight characteristics of your parachute.

Oh but there's nothing stopping you right now from learning how to fly your parachute ... and fly it fast. Just do it up high before you bring it low to ground. Instead of asking us what altitude you should setup at, you should have learned the performance envelop of your canopy first. But that takes education, experience and patience. I've got no problem with you wanting to be a swooper. The next step is up to you. Do you want to be a swooper or a test pilot?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Travman 6]

Do a Brian Germain canopy course before you even think about thinking about possibly thinking about starting swoop, espicially at those numbers.
I am not an instructor, nor do I have a significant number of jump numbers but swoop can be very dangerous, the ground is very unforgiving and it never misses.
I completed a Germain course this weekend and the information is invaluable.

[Tink1717 2]

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I've been through the "swooping is evil if you don't have 400 jumps, and you're going to crater" bit before, understand it clearly, disagree with it, and really don't have patience for it anymore.

The you need to go and buy a wheelchair and a coffin now (they're much cheaper if you get then ahead of time).

You obviously aren't going to listen to those who have enough experience to tell you not to do what you are doing. So make sure you have good medical insurance, a living will, and a durable power of attorney. You won't be the first rookie who pushed it too far too early and you, unfortunately, won't be the last.

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[D22369 0]

I take silence to imply consent, for now.
***

nope, just some of us are tired of banging our heads against walls trying to keep wanna be skygods alive and in one piece...

with your attitude, tell your friends and family how much you care about them before every trip to the dz.... one of these days you wont be going home.

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[Kris 0]

I highly doubt that you have the canopy familiarity yet, or the accuracy to even begin about thinking starting swooping.

Just make sure you include me in your will, I can always use more gear. Just try not to get too much blood on it first, k?

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[YISkyDive 0]

Ok guys, come on..

the poor guy is confused, and lost on where his skills are at, but sensless comments are not going to save his life.. they will drive more to prove you wrong, and in so prove himself wrong..

help him out with USEFULL advice, like courses, checklists, books, and progressions more so than "dont get blood" on it. that wont help him.

Make it clear to him he needs a reality check, but dont make silly comments that will drive him more...

think before you post, help him dont dig his grave for him.

[Kris 0]

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help him out with USEFULL advice, like courses, checklists, books, and progressions more so than "dont get blood" on it. that wont help him.

Not getting blood on it *is* important. It really screws up the resale value.

Stick around in the sport a while longer and after you've seen enough people frap in from stupid canopy choices you'll feel the same way.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[chutem 0]

With 31 jumps in 2 years atleast he's "ultra current".
James

[efex 0]

Learning to fly - For what its worth please slow down, there is no rush in this sport. The sky will always be there tommorrow and it would be a real shame for you not to be there to enjoy it. I always have students coming upto me asking me what next skill they should master, my first response is more often than not, "ay, but have you mastered patience yet?".

I know how you feel as I have been there with 50 jumps desperatley wanting to push the envelope. You should see me on a snowboard . I have always picked things up more quickly than most people, but like everyone still make mistakes. The most important thing you can learn is that you WILL make mistakes, maybe not tommorrow but you WILL. If and when you do, do you think you will survive? If the answer is your not sure, then you are probably moving to fast.

Warwick University Skydiving Club

[YISkyDive 0]

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Stick around in the sport a while longer and after you've seen enough people frap in from stupid canopy choices you'll feel the same way.

I have been in the sport 7 years, and yes, i have seen people end up in a bag.. does that mean i should let everyone else too? not in my opinion...

you apprently have made up your mind.

[dharma1976 0]

go here
briangermain.com
and find a course near you, and then ask brian about his accident will 20 times your jump numbers...

also buy the book he sells, after I broke my fibula and
crushed my ankle bone into dust I did the smart thing, upsized, bought this book and slowed the f down...

the second before I hit these thoughts went through my mind

a. why didnt I listen to everyone
b. am I going to die
c. am I going to be in a wheelchair
d. oh god this is going to hurt.

and then I bounced...

and all that feeling of invincibility left and I laughed because I could feel my legs and I was not dead.

Please... take your time, keep your blood and bones in your body, and stay alive, its the only way to get good in this sport. Rushing will only lead to pain and hospital bills (fibula surgery is about 15K these days, and thats if you get lucky)

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[LearningTOfly 0]

First off... YISkyDive, thanks again for the pm- it was totally awesome, and very helpful.

To the rest- here's an example of what I was looking for in advice:

"[The larger canopies] have small recovery arcs, and little lift to play with... my 90 gives me 21mph (downward speed) my 270 (never landed, up high only) gives me 25.. not all that much more."

...this sort of information is meaningful, and I took the additional associated comments seriously here.

Or in general:

"The smaller recovery arc means you'll need to watch out for....." or "Planing out high in the beginning is not a bad thing, work on trying.... and with time the plane will parallel the ground at lower altitude"

Not:

"I have 2000 jumps you don't, therefore I know better and you really shouldn't do that"

Guys, I know many excellent pilots- for example 5000+ hours- who were the best in the business at some point- and who can't teach worth a bounced (different context here, think tailwheel) landing. I need information I can work with... not all of this negative crap.

The other thing I can't understand is the whole "I hope you don't get blood on the gear. By the way, can I have it when you're dead?" or the "Looks like it's time to buy a coffin" Like WTF? This is how the community supports it's future? This is the support we show eachother? These are the type of comments that are coming from the people who I used to look up to, admire, and respect? (or at least as much of that as could be done on an online message forum) Well, thanks, you've left a fantastic impression.

CanuckInUSA- I appreciate your comments- but need more substance After all, it sounds like you were in a similar position at one time too. For reference- I have no intention of downsizing soon- I'm happy with 1:1 and flying it assertively. I've seen the really hot approaches (2:1 wl), and could care less for them- the margin of error gets slimer than I like to think about in such cases. I like getting turf surfs, and that's it.

So... YISkyDive and Canuck- thank you for your time, I do appreciate it.

And.... Is there any constructive information out there yet?

[GQ_jumper 4]

Ok i'm going to ask for advice from people that know a lot more than me and then when they tell me the truth i'm going to ignore it and hear only what i want to here. Cuz i'm too great of a canopy pilot to listen to people with more experience than me, what do they know!!!

dude this is seriously what you sound like, these people aren't trying to be assholes, they are trying to save your life. when they say things like, take a step back and learn the slow fight characteristics of their canopy, its not because they are trying to keep you out of their super secret swoopers club, its because they are trying to keep you alive long enough to get into the club.

doing 180's at your jump numbers is absolutely retarded, i'm nowhere near that level right now, and have over 100 jumps(not that this makes me any kind of an expert, but it means i have more experience than you even if just a little more, and i'm not trying what you're doin yet), so why are you pushing the envelope? i'm one of those people that can take any sport and excel levels beyond my peers in a short time, things like this come naturally to me. yet i am still not even trying to push the envelope in swooping cause i know that stepping back and taking it easy is going to make me a better pilot in the long run. i'm not trying to talk myself up as the next Clint Clawson, my hope is that someday i can be at least a mediocre canopy pilot. but i do know that i will at least be alive when i get to that point cuz i'm not rushing anything. Look through these forums, you will see tons of guys just like you askin for tips on how to swoop better when they aren't ready to swoop yet. most of them ignored or talked shit to the guys telling them to slow down, then go look at the incident reports and you will see most of those guys femured in shortly after ignoring the advice they were given. So are you really gona sit there and say, I'm better than all those guys becuse i'm me!!! or are you going to swallow your pride and admit that you aren't as ready as you think to be doing what you're doing. in most sports you can be put in your place by getting humiliated by another team, unfortunately in this sport the opposing team is the ground, and when it beats you the results usually aren't pretty. please don't let yourself become a statistic, our sport is already short on participants and we need to protect what we have left.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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For reference- I have no intention of downsizing soon- I'm happy with 1:1 and flying it assertively.

Just know that a Sabre 170 is very capable of being a high performance canopy (with all the good and bad which comes with high performance flight). Sure my Velo is like driving a Ferrari. But one can still make mistakes with a Buick as well. I know what a Sabre(2) 170 is capable of doing because I made several hundred jumps with one a couple of years ago. Make no mistake that this can be a high performance canopy and a canopy which can kill or mame you.

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I need more substance

I would highly recommend that you at the very minimum buy Mr. Germain's book and if possible talk to a credible canopy control coach or an experienced swooper (someone with thousands of jumps not your local 'X' number of jumps beer line wonder) who's willing to work with you. Dedicate jumps towards canopy control. Sure you can play with your fronts up high, but don't forget to practice the slow flight characteristics as well. But until you've spent more time learning your canopy up high and building experience, you really are nothing more than a test pilot by inducing speed low to the ground. And test pilots don't always live.

Oh and just to prove that guys like myself are human and capable of making mistakes. I came close to taking out a judge in a CPC swoop comp today in one of those "really hot approaches" you refered to earlier. My leg actually did hit his body, but luckily all that happened was minor injuries to both of us and I was able to continue to complete (albeit with some pain and less confidence). It could have been much worse and hopefully I learned a huge lesson (time will tell) in all of this.

Swooping is a lot of fun. But it's not safe and it requires knowledge, experience (only obtained by jumping a lot and being current) and skill (maybe a little luck as well). Don't be a test pilot. Learn to become a canopy pilot. But becoming a canopy pilot does take time.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Zee 0]

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Oh, and please- positive advice only- I've been through the "swooping is evil if you don't have 400 jumps, and you're going to crater" bit before, understand it clearly, disagree with it, and really don't have patience for it anymore..

The word "Progression" comes to mind when I read this thread. You have to learn to walk before you run, Chief. At this point in the game you should be concentrating on toggle inputs, not riser inputs. Learn the basics of accuracy, canopy control, and the flight characteristics of your particular canopy before you start pushing yourself. It's all part of the progression. Patience is a huge part of the game - If you lose your patience, you are going to get hurt, guaranteed.

Mr. Canuck makes some very good points, listen to them. Seeking advice on the internet concerning something as dangerous as swooping with 31 jumps is like asking advice on high performance motorcycle riding techniques after 31 miles on your first scooter.
You simply don't have enough experience to translate the advice in to real world performance.

Get professional instruction where a qualified instructor can observe your actions first hand and adjust the instruction accordingly.

There's plenty of time to learn - use it wisely and you'll be swooping soon enough.

Peace,
Z

Action©Sports

[Tonto 1]

Too fast, too soon.

Stop it, or the ground will stop you. It doesn't care.

To the rest of you, this is something Chuck posted to a similar thread last week. Little has changed, it seems.

Lots of inappropriate responses here, people; quit it.

To the original poster: you have no business even thinking ******, much less a ****** at your experience level. Shame on the person who loans you one to try.

To the others: don't assume "troll" here. This might very well be a person who thinks a ****** is an appropriate choice (it's not by the way). And again: don't egg the guy on; this is a serious forum.

Keep it clean, fools!

Chuck

t

It's the year of the Pig.