perse 0 #1 May 10, 2005 ...as all the others here I'm also tired of this "I have 100 jumps, can I start swooping" -conversation... Pulling the front risers when having less than 100 jumps may be ok for someone who really thinks what he is doing, is ready to practice and is talented under the canopy and YES, THERE ARE JUMPERS WHO HAVE 3000 JUMPS and I'd never like to see them try swooping... I'm not saying that it doesn't sound stupid when some student with 20 jumps tells me he knows swooping is going to be his discipline... but there might be some very talented 16 year old jumper with C-license and 100 jumps and who is working his/her ass off to learn how to swoop (safely and loong...) (And already can make a 270 more safe than most of the 1000 jump heroes...) Remember...people are different So let's not forbid every jumper with less than 400 jumps to do a 180... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #2 May 10, 2005 QuotePulling the front risers when having less than 100 jumps may be ok for someone who really thinks what he is doing, is ready to practice and is talented under the canopy Sure, if they have a solid grasp and practical application of SLOW FLIGHT principals. I've yet to meet one that does, doesn't mean they don't exist though. Interestly enough one of the the LAST things about learning to swoop is actually adding the speed IMO. QuoteRemember...people are different Yes, but there's no substitute for experience. With 100 jumps, no matter HOW GOOD YOU MAY BE, you don't have the experience to recognize bad situations developing. If you learn to recognize those situations with lower degrees of turns and gradually increase the turn over time you're less likely to suddenly be in over your head. You're also more likely by that time to have continued to gain experience and foresight to help you even further with these situations. Proactive pilots: adaptable flight patterns, ability to 'see' where they and others will be are far less likely to hurt themselves. They have a plan, but are able to adapt it AHEAD OF TIME as things being to develop around them. than Reactive pilots: have an idea of when to turn; get caught in the moment and dont have a good idea on whats going on around them; get fixated on their swoop target; have little to no ability to find 'their place' in the pattern, etc, etc Problem is that you need experience to be a pro-active pilot....see what I'm getting at? QuoteSo let's not forbid every jumper with less than 400 jumps to do a 180... The dynamics of anything more than a 90 degree turn escape most people in this range. There's so much more than simply yanking a riser at a set altitude. There are orientation issues, pattern issues, traffic issues, etc. People rarely consider those. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
superstu 0 #3 May 10, 2005 QuoteThe dynamics of anything more than a 90 degree turn escape most people in this range. There's so much more than simply yanking a riser at a set altitude. There are orientation issues, pattern issues, traffic issues, etc. People rarely consider those. Well put and great post ianSlip Stream Air Sports Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rdutch 0 #4 May 10, 2005 I agree, lets not hold people back. If I see a person with 100 jumps doing 270's, I wont hold him back, instead I will just sit back and wait until he pounds in. If he/you or whoever wont listen to people that have seen this and experienced this over and over again, then the ground will teach them the ultimate lesson, its a very good teacher. In my years in the sport I have seen it happen many times, the guy that everyone points their fingers at and says, he is next. You know what, 99% of the time they are right. Especially when they were pointing their finger at me. Im talking from experience here, I thought I could do it when I had 300 jumps and did it quite well for another 50 until I slipped. Experience would have saved me but I had none so I pounded. Look at the best swoopers in the world, most of them have METAL in their bodies. Swooping deserves a lot more respect than you think, just because someone can do it right off the bat doesnt mean anything. Safely flying your canopy requires a lot more experience and familiarity than you think. Learning to swoop takes time and experience, something that doesnt come in 100 jumps. There is a lot of things to think about when swooping, and one of the most inportant things is understanding the range of your canopy, how far it dives with how much input. Limiting a turn to just degrees is bad, you can do a 270 from 700ft or 500ft so at what altitude do you do your turn from, and at what turn rate? When do you decide your too low to finish your 270 and stop turning, did you leave yourself somewhere to go if you only get 200 degrees in your turn? Make the wrong choice and its going to hurt. You cant pick things like this up in 100 jumps, something to think about? Other things come to mind your canopy dives more/less in hot or cold conditions. Do you know when to safely bail out or to keep going? How about flying in traffic, whats everyone else going to do, can you avoid it, or be a problem to everyone in the air with you. Getting cut off is the fault of both people its your job to be aware of everything in the air and avoid it. There is a lot more to swooping than just doing a 180 or 270 safely a few times. You can listen to people trying to help you or you can let the Earth be your teacher. Its up to you. Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bartje 0 #5 May 10, 2005 What about the dropzone kids? They watch already from, let's say when they were 5 years old, parachutes landing. I do know a kid like that and I can tell you, before his first jump he often did say to me who was doing a good or bad landing. ok, there are not much skydivers like that but I try to say that you can not put every student in the same box. 95% from the students does not have any idea how to swoop but somebody with a good eye can learn much at the dropzone. A 180° turn at 100 jumps? but I will explain everything to this student about swooping and how to begin with it. I use Brians book as a guideline for this. What is a swoop for this 100 jump skydiver, the lift sensation? The 20 ft turf? The world record stuff? In what context is the student asking questions? After those questions you know what kind of people you have in front of you. A FreeFly Gypsy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
perse 0 #6 May 10, 2005 proactive pilots... it's good that you brought that up.... My example is a little bit overstated...but about being proactive. Some people naturally are very worried about where the others will be flying when they are planning their landing pattern, and still they are eager to swoop and ready to call it off if there's something wrong....some with thousands of jumps only see the swoop pond and the only "proactive work they do is telling "stay out of my way" to all the other jumpers. Some people are careful already as a child. Some learn to be careful when they get hurt. Some people never learn... Most important is to tell these eager 100 jump swoopers how to practice safely. When I started swooping ( before having 100 jumps) nobody wanted to tell me how to practice. I'm not so talented so maybe I'm lucky to still be here. I was careful, but I also was stubborn so I had to try everything myself. Imagine how frustrating and scary it is to start trying hook turns when all the information you have is from some BR:s book... Why couldn't anyone say anything else than "You shouldn't even think of swooping yet!"... Were all the proSwoopers at our DZ with thousands of jumps afraid that someone with 400 jumps is going to swoop longer ? Well...none of these things is absolute.... eXperience is important. What is eXperience...You get it by practicing?.... Which one is more experienced swooper and is more likely to hurt himself or the others when doing the next hook turn: Someone with 800 jumps and Stiletto 1.5 WL and no hook landings or someone with 200 jumps of which last 100 are hook turns with Sabre2 WL 1.3....? yank yank Well...none of these things is absolute.... eXperience is important. Have a nice swooping summer! -Peter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #7 May 10, 2005 QuoteWhat about the dropzone kids? They watch already from, let's say when they were 5 years old, parachutes landing. I do know a kid like that and I can tell you, before his first jump he often did say to me who was doing a good or bad landing. Sure, but I've been watching motorcycle and formula 1 racing for years. While I can pick out mistakes, it doesn't mean that if you put me in the car or on the bike that I won't make them too. You cannot circumvent practice. Regardless of how much you watch an activity. Will watching help? My guess is yes, will it give you everything you need? Definitely not. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #8 May 10, 2005 QuoteWhich one is more experienced swooper and is more likely to hurt himself or the others when doing the next hook turn: Someone with 800 jumps and Stiletto 1.5 WL and no hook landings or someone with 200 jumps of which last 100 are hook turns with Sabre2 WL 1.3....? yank yank The guy with 200 jumps is more likely to hurt themselves when things go wrong. 800 jumps vs 200....that's 600 more jumps where they've had to deal with things going wrong and have 600 more landings worth of experience. Someone with 600 more jumps is also going to be much more familiar with their canopy and how it reacts to input than someone with just 200.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #9 May 10, 2005 QuoteImagine how frustrating and scary it is to start trying hook turns when all the information you have is from some BR:s book... Why couldn't anyone say anything else than "You shouldn't even think of swooping yet!"... It is scary. Some of us started when there was NO information. Imagine how frustrating and scary it is to finally have the knowledge out there, only to watch upcoming jumpers ignore it. QuoteWere all the proSwoopers at our DZ with thousands of jumps afraid that someone with 400 jumps is going to swoop longer ? Not one jumper I've ever met on the circuit (well Marks aside j/k) doesn't want someone to perform at the best of their ability. I've heard upcoming jumpers use your statement above and I only can laugh. Nuturing isn't telling you what you want to hear, it's telling you what you NEED to hear. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedy 0 #10 May 10, 2005 Imagine trying to teach some one to race an automobile before they can drive.... Learn tightrope walking, start here, no saftey net, 100ft high.... Learn to ski! But please start on the black slopes.... If the above makes sense then I suppose you can start on 180's at 100 jumps Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chachi 0 #11 May 10, 2005 I agree with Ian's assessment of Pro Swoopers. They are all about helping you become better not trying to hold you back. They just want you to be a great example of the sport and will try and arm you with information to avoid a collision with the ground or someone else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
perse 0 #12 May 10, 2005 ...QuoteYou cant pick things like this up in 100 jumps, something to think about? I started swooping after some 80 jumps. First with some 20 of 90 degree dives. Then I started practicing 180s. I had sabre150 with 1.3 WL and needed to start my dive at some 350 ft. 270s had to be started at some 450-500 ft. Most of the first 50 turns were a way too high cause its not easy to keep sabre with 1.3 WL diving with such a speed you have after a 270. But anyway, I always had my landing pattern planned before jump, and I always left a place to go if I hadn't enough height to finish the turn, didn't do the hook turn if the wind was too bad, took a separate line at 3300ft before others to be sure there's nobody else at the same time etc....Well I'm lucky I didn't pound. It's been much closer since then...When you know you are a novice you are careful. When you get experience you start thinking you don't need to be that careful anymore. I got my "lucky I'm here" experience on well over 1000th jump and learned that I'm still a novice. Experience is not an excuse of not being careful, and not being experinced doesn't always mean being stupid. If you crash because you didn't have somewhere to go when only getting 200 degrees its 90% stupidity and 10% lack of experience. You are right that every year there are many accidents like that. Why do people forget to think when then jump?...and BEFORE jump? What I mean here is that right kind of attitude means as much as experience of hundreds of jumps.. I love to see students training for their -15th jump. Some might train throwing the pilot chute for hours... Some just take 5 minutes to try... BTW. It's funny that some "not so pro but with velo anyway" (Doens't mean you) swoopers tell me that they have to start their dive higher when the temperature changes etc and they don't even check their altitude from the altimeter before starting the dive. Eye can't match even an old barigo... 2nd BTW... How can you tell if a student is ready to do his first skydive? Make some very hot and spicy food at the DZ and take the toilet paper out from the toilet. When the student 15 minutes later runs to the toilet and shouts another 15 minutes later that could someone bring some toilet paper, you can tell he won't became a good skydiver. A good skydiver always checks all the important things beforehand, even though there's not much time.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #13 May 10, 2005 QuoteWhen you know you are a novice you are careful. When you get experience you start thinking you don't need to be that careful anymore. I got my "lucky I'm here" experience on well over 1000th jump and learned that I'm still a novice. Experience is not an excuse of not being careful, Very, very good point. Experience can definitely lead to complacency. Any 'close one' I've had has been because I started getting way to comfy. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #14 May 10, 2005 QuoteWhat about the dropzone kids? They watch already from, let's say when they were 5 years old, parachutes landing. I do know a kid like that and I can tell you, before his first jump he often did say to me who was doing a good or bad landing. I'm just starting to add some extra speed to my landings. I'm a wuss close to the ground, I like to stay in one piece I've been videoing a LOT of swoops these last 1 1/2 years and attended the seminars and generally talked/chatted a LOT about swooping. I've been told by 2 PD Factory Team guys that I have picked up a lot just by watching. Maybe, I can usually tell (I think, LOL) if someone was low,why he was low etc. But I don't have the sight pictures from up high. I don't know, maybe I'm a swooping talent waiting to be discovered (yeah right ) but for now I mostly either FORGET to go to my fronts or I do but let them up waaay too high. The only thing I'm really sure of is that I've seen too many really botched-up landings already, and I don't intend to add one myself. I think that I may know a fair amount, however that's all "book wisdom". Now to get the sight pics and the muscle memory... I make a much better swooping video judge than I do a competitor ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bartje 0 #15 May 11, 2005 I'm sure that one can learn much just by watching landings like you say. It will not give you the experience like Ian says. Watching mistakes from other swoopers is even more teachfull but make one mistake yourselves and you will learn a lot. I hope that mistake does not hurt. Swooping is not an art, continuing swooping, thats art. A FreeFly Gypsy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #16 May 11, 2005 Quote...as all the others here I'm also tired of this "I have 100 jumps, can I start swooping" -conversation... Pulling the front risers when having less than 100 jumps may be ok for someone who really thinks what he is doing, is ready to practice and is talented under the canopy and YES, THERE ARE JUMPERS WHO HAVE 3000 JUMPS and I'd never like to see them try swooping... I'm not saying that it doesn't sound stupid when some student with 20 jumps tells me he knows swooping is going to be his discipline... but there might be some very talented 16 year old jumper with C-license and 100 jumps and who is working his/her ass off to learn how to swoop (safely and loong...) (And already can make a 270 more safe than most of the 1000 jump heroes...) Remember...people are different So let's not forbid every jumper with less than 400 jumps to do a 180... Have you mastered SLOW SPEED FLIGHT YET? At 100 jumps you should be using fronts to get out of high wind. Playing with canopy energy up high. Whatever you do, don't swoop without a coach. Find the best canopy pilot at or near your dz. Ask intelligent questions then double check those questions with another swooper. I had 2 great coaches when I started. Do TONS of hop-n-pops from altitude. At 650 jumps I have more canopy time than most people with 3000 jumps. You have to learn and build muscle memory under your canopy. Take a canopy course. Swooping now.. Before mastering flat turns and accuracy WILL kill you without exception. Hit the p's 10 out of 10 times in varying winds.. Practice flat turns.. Sinking in.. Landing patterns.. These are basic things that should happen before you fly fast. Be safe.. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #17 May 12, 2005 yeah and then there was my friend, who was all af the above and was getting so much coaching and I even heard a pro swooper say that he thought that he was going to be on the circuit at some point, and he is now in a wheel chair... Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #18 May 12, 2005 yeah I spent the winter letting my titanium settle in and reading brian germains book... man even through the perkacete (sic) brians writing made sense...and then I read it again and again and again and again... it changed the way I fly my canopy... changed the way I rushed things changed the way I approach every landing... I reccomend it to anyone interested in swooping for the first time especially at 200 jumps...isnt there a great passage in the book about brian breaking his back at 300 jumps? Cheers Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rdutch 0 #19 May 13, 2005 ***BTW. It's funny that some "not so pro but with velo anyway" (Doens't mean you) swoopers tell me that they have to start their dive higher when the temperature changes etc and they don't even check their altitude from the altimeter before starting the dive. Eye can't match even an old barigo...Quote BTW Try hitting gates in different conditions, you will learn fast that different conditions alter the altitudes and attack you will use when flying. Difference is EXPERIENCE, you still think that there is a majic altitude and turn degree, there is none! An experienced pilot will feel the difference and improvise during his turn. Anyway why am I telling you this you obviously have it all figured out. Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alan 1 #20 May 13, 2005 QuoteThe guy with 200 jumps is more likely to hurt themselves when things go wrong. 800 jumps vs 200....that's 600 more jumps where they've had to deal with things going wrong and have 600 more landings worth of experience. Someone with 600 more jumps is also going to be much more familiar with their canopy and how it reacts to input than someone with just 200. Just something to think about. A guy that has 200 jumps and on every jump challenges himself to learn or improve on a skill and gets coaching as opposed to a guy with 800 jumps who has attempted to do nothing different than when he had 50 jumps and experience is just reactive to the various situations he has encountered. I'm using smaller brushes and more colors, you get a more accurate picture that way.alan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LearningTOfly 0 #21 May 13, 2005 Amen... very well put, sir Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,121 #22 May 13, 2005 The problem is that nearly everyone wants to be, or thinks they are, that guy "who is different." I'm not a swooper, but, well, I'd like to think I'm different, smarter, and a little more skilled by nature than others too (at other skills). But, well, by and large I'm not. The penalty for not being as good as you thought you were is greater in swooping than in other skills. Me, I just look stupid when I mess up because I wasn't as good as I thought I was, but I don't hurt myself. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
listo 0 #23 May 13, 2005 I think that it is really sad that there are people in this world who don't have the balls to say when enough is enough. Come on dude, sure there are prodigies out there, but damn. I don't think that it is even remotely funny to encourage someone with less than 300 jumps to attempt a HP landing, regardless of how good they are. One of the things that we SHOULD BE LEARNING as we progress further into our sport is HOW TO LEARN. Saying that someone will learn one way or the other is the most ignorant and irresponsible thing I have heard of in this sport, next to those guys who landed the Mr. Bill at Rantoul. Instead of saying "sure man, if you think you can do it, go for it".... why don't we encourage these wide-eyed rookies to attend a canopy camp instead. At least that is a structured environment that is designed for learning as well as teaching themself how to learn. I am not sure which was worse. Sitting on the ground looking at my left knee tickling my crotch because my femur was busted in 5 places or watching a guy in chicago amputate his leg at impact because the bone exploded out the side with such force that it cut his leg off. Either way, in my humble opinion, anyone that would encourage a rookie to just go out and try what ever, needs to hang up their gear and go bowling as far as I am concerned. There are too many places around the world that someone can get some really good advice and instruction on how to LEARN instead of telling them, sure, go ahead, try it if you dare. Nobody wants to see anyone get held back in this sport, whether it is swooping or free fall disciplines. At the same time, NOBODY needs to be telling the rookies to attempt something on their own EITHER. Swooping is no longer in the dark ages and it makes me sick to my stomach to see someone with your jump numbers encouraging a low time jumper or someone with no swoop experience to go out and try it. Please think before you get someone hurt.Live today as tomorrow may not come Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
listo 0 #24 May 13, 2005 dropzone kids do have an advantage in having seen a lot more than most rookies, but like it was said earlier, just because you have seen it, doesn't mean that you can SEE IT. Human beings have NO depth perception from the air that is good enough to be able to distinguish well enough what is a good "site picture" vs. a "bad site picture". That kind of thing can only come from experience. while it is true that DZ kids will more than likely excell faster than most, it is also true that they are more likely to be in more danger because they are going to push the limits harder and faster. As I stated in my earlier post, there are plenty of camps out there designed for people to learn in a safe environment to hopefully reduce the risks of learning. Laying on the ground with your body in a million pieces is no joke and the only thing scarier than laying there broken, is wondering if you are going to die or not.... even worse if you are going to live and be crippled for the rest of your life. A 5 second moment of glory is definitely not worth a person's life or livelihood, much less their families that might have to wipe their poopie bum for the rest of their life because they can't do it for themself. I almost died once and I am paying the price for it daily. I was one of the ones that had the talent, athletic ability, awesome reflexes and everything that younger skydivers who want to swoop think that they have. The only thing I didn't have was experience and that almost cost me my life. In fact, I might have been better off dead because now I have a broken back, hip and femur and it causes me a great deal of discomfort every single day. I still swoop, but I learned a very serious lesson, THE HARD WAY. Personally, I am an advocate of the USPA setting guidelines for swoop attempts the same as they do for demonstration jumpers. That being a D license and/or 500 jumps minimum on a ram air canopy, with the swoop attempts being made on a canopy in which the swooper candidate has made at least 200 jumps, with a currency of at least 50 jumps being made in the preceding 60 days with no less than 2 jumps having been made in the preceding 7 days. LOL that post is going to get some replies I am sure! Don't get me wrong people, I am not a swoop NAZI. I just get really sickened when I hear of one of my brothers or sisters who has pounded in. In fact, tears come to my eyes because I know how much it affects not only the jumper, but their families as well. Be Safe, Be Smart and Be VIGILANT Blue Skies and loooooooooong swoops. samLive today as tomorrow may not come Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #25 May 13, 2005 Nice post, Ray, my brother. Ian too. I am happy that I am not the only one who has taken the time, repeatedly, to put it into words. Just a note here: ALL of us who have been skydiving for any length of time, particularly those of us who regularly fly HP canopies like they are meant to be flown, have dead friends. I mean ALL of us. Likewise, all of us have best friends who, although extremely talented at swooping, have femured in and busted themselves up badly and are now sporting permanent titanium hardware in their bodies. Modern HP canopy piloting has become science in nearly exactly the same way four way RW has. There is a right way to do something and a wrong (or at least very-inefficient) way to do it. Unlike four-way though, taking shortcuts in swooping is far more dangerous. Manufacturers have minimum-jump/experience requirements for HP canopies for a reason. Likewise, those of us who learned in the stone age and those of us who have paid the price for fucking up tell you these stories for a reason: we don't want to see anymore of you dead on our DZ's. End of lecture, Chuck Blue D-12501 AFF/SL/TM-I, BMCI, PRO rated demonstration skydiver, PST PROFESSIONAL for five years Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
