Manufacturers set too short brake lines?

[druspork 0]

I had my brake line trim checked in a canopy pilot course over Easter. Ultimately we added a full 10" to the brake lines. Now the canopy actually flies on front riser input. previously front risers got the canopy shakey because the brakes were inputting along with the fronts.

This seemed to be a known problem, the thinking being manufacturers wanting to ensure early brake engagement for digging out of corners. Anyone else come across this?

Dru

[ianmdrennan 2]

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the thinking being manufacturers wanting to ensure early brake engagement for digging out of corners. Anyone else come across this?

I don't think this is the reason. I believe it's cause 99% of people don't actually finish their flare so the manufacturers who have a long (good) toggle stroke get complaints that X canopy flares like crap when it's actually the pilot (that's my guess at least).

ALSO spectra shrinks as you jump it so your brake lines get progressively shorter. Part of maintenance is checking and adjusting this length as necessary, particularly if you're doing HP landings.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[dragon2 0]

Yeah my spectre's were like that. No problem on my Safire though, even had to shorten the steering lines on that one because I have ultra short risers.

When Icarus Team Extreme came over to our DZ for seminars and stuff last year first thing they did was video the swoops, then they freeze-framed the vids during the turn so you could see that almost all the canopies were in slight brakes so they had their brakes set too short, this included Xaos, Velocity etc too.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Hooknswoop 19]

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When Icarus Team Extreme came over to our DZ for seminars and stuff last year first thing they did was video the swoops, then they freeze-framed the vids during the turn so you could see that almost all the canopies were in slight brakes so they had their brakes set too short, this included Xaos, Velocity etc too.

Most people doing front riser turns have their brakes set too high and don't even know it. Or if they do set them correctly and have spectra lines, they don't adjust them as the lines shrink.

A quick test is to make a 360-degree front risr turn with, then without the toggles in your hands. If there is a difference in riser pressure, your toggles are set too high.

Derek

[rsein 0]

From your profile I gather you fly a Sabre2

I have never jumped that canopy but that's the canopy my wife has. One thing that cought my eye from day 1, is all the excess break line after you stow the toggles. It is a lot more than what I'm used to see in other canopies and it flares fine.

Do you have many jumps on your lines or did you buy it used? Mabe is line shrinking like others have stated.

HISPA #5

[Kris 0]

That's a good test, Derek. I'm also amazed by those that never look up at their lines to see how much bow is in them, or to see how much toggle input is needed before the tail starts deflecting.

It only took me about 3 jumps to get my Stiletto control lines dialed in just how I needed it.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[Remster 24]

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is all the excess break line after you stow the toggles

If you have lots of line to stow, then you have long brake lines. If you have little line to stow, then they are short.

EDIT: I'm not saying too long or too short. That, you have to check with in flight tests

Remster

[Spizzzarko 0]

Having lots of line to stow can also means your cat eye is higher on the brake line.

[nicknitro71 0]

The eye should be as set by the manufacturer's trim specs regardless the length of the risers or personal preferences. Check the distance from the cascade to the eye first and make sure it's in trim.

If you want to play with the brake line length change the length of the lower control line, below the eye.

Many manufacture ships they lowers free so you can adjust them they way you want and then have your rigger finger-trap and bratack them if so desired.
I have seen people messing with the upper break lines to change the length. That is bad news! It will change the opening characteristic of the canopy.

For some reasons all the Jedeis and Samurais I have jumped have too short of a setting and I am not the only one noticing that. I have jump 105s, 135s, and 120s and all of them needed a good 7" of extra lower line. Go figure.

I think Derek is correct that might be a marketing issue.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[rsein 0]

Quote

Quote

is all the excess break line after you stow the toggles

If you have lots of line to stow, then you have long brake lines. If you have little line to stow, then they are short.

EDIT: I'm not saying too long or too short. That, you have to check with in flight tests

***



I know, I'm just saying that's the way it came from PD and it looks like a lot. But those are the factory settings and it's trimmed just fine.

HISPA #5

[isaiah85 0]

Hey,

If you are not sure about the length of your break lines you can check out our website it has all the measurements on there. The factory setting on a Sabre2 has a little slack in the brake lines in full flight.

http://www.performancedesigns.com/education.asp

at the bottom of the page under canopy line trims. If you have any questions feel free to PM me

Later,
Isaiah

[dragon2 0]

Quote

Hey,

If you are not sure about the length of your break lines you can check out our website it has all the measurements on there. The factory setting on a Sabre2 has a little slack in the brake lines in full flight.

http://www.performancedesigns.com/education.asp

at the bottom of the page under canopy line trims. If you have any questions feel free to PM me

Later,
Isaiah

Shouldn't is have a little slack in the brakelines in max frontrisers?

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[druspork 0]

I doubt it's line shrink - I bought the canopy new and have approx 200 jumps on it.

Dru

[davelepka 4]

If the adjustments were to the lower brake lines, there are a variety of possibilites. On spectra lined canopies, you usually get a dot on the line, which is where you attach the toggle.

Depending on how you tie the knot, and where the dot ends up, you could alter the measurement by 3 or 4 inches. Different jumpers seem to have different ideas of the dot, and which side of the knot it should be on.

If the knot was tied short, and your lines shrunk a couple inches (possible in 200 jumps), then your 10'' shortness maybe came from the dot being marked 2 inches short.

Or, the dot could have been mis-marked entirely. This is not a life-saving measurement, and it's possible someone just blew it at the factory. I'm not sure if they check the dot location in a QC check or not, but far worse mistakes have made it into the sky.

I don't see how a manufacturer could expect to short line the canopies as a safety measure. Proper brake line length is common knowledge, and even those who don't know will show everyone else when they get a full flare at shoulder level.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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I doubt it's line shrink - I bought the canopy new and have approx 200 jumps on it

That's plenty of jumps to have the lines shrink AT least an inch on the brakes. Possibly more if you're a heavy brake flyer.

Part of HP piloting is maintaining your gear. This means regular (every 100 jumps or so) checking of the brake line length.

I'm also a firm believer in relining every 400 or so jumps regardless if the lines are spectra or vectran. Vectran is approaching the end of it's useful life by then and spectra has shrunk by that time.

I know you can get a lot more jumps out of a spectra lineset than 400 but I don't think the canopy is near it's original trim specs around then.

Just my thoughts.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[LoudDan 0]

I agree with Ian, on various different canopies I've had to lengthen my lines anywhere from 2 to 5 inches after as little as 100 jumps. If you have 200 consider having your rigger measure your lines (actually have him/her show you the proper way to do this) you will probably find the lines have shrunk 2 or 3 inches from factory trim (just my experience with the Sabre 2)

Coming soon to a bowl of Wheaties near you!!

[druspork 0]

I think I've got the picture guys - keep a good eye on those brake lines.

All the same, dont forget we ended up adding 10".

Out of interest, if the brake lines shrink this fast, what about the rest of the lines?

Dru

[murps2000 86]

I have seen people messing with the upper break lines to change the length. That is bad news! It will change the opening characteristic of the canopy.***

It does change the opening charcteristics of the canopy, but not neccesarily for the worse. It, along with another mod at the cascades, dramatically improved the openings of my FX. I was lucky to get good advice from a designer regarding the adjustment, and so I am in agreement with you that people shouldn't just make experiments with upper control line lengths. It could make things worse, as well. They should absolutely consult a designer or test pilot first, and not someone else just because they are a rigger or sales rep. Even then, the advice may not be good. As I said, I was lucky.