B. Germains WL chart

[davelepka 4]

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Canopy piloting is not only flying your canopy

Yeah, I know.

To answer your concern about traffic, wouldn't it make more sense to limit the speed at which newer pilots are flying around?

When was the last time a tandem suddenly came from out of nowhere, and cut you off? It doesn't happen because they're too slow. Keep the newbies going slow, and they'll have time to learn where and when to go. As thier experience builds, so can their potential to go fast. If they learn the right way, they'll end up doing just the opposite.

I creep around the pattern and fly my set up in deep brakes. It's just better that way, for all involved. Take a kid with 300 jumps, who hasn't figured that out yet, give him a fast canopy, and bingo, your worst nightmare.

I'm telling you, this Wl chart thing is the way to go, for EVERYONE. Learnig to fly a canopy is an evolution of your skills and mindset. Advance the canopies along with the evolution (remember, evolution is a slow process) and things will work themselves out. When the jump #'s say a guy is ready, his skills and mindset will also be ready.

Let him skip parts of the evolution, and he becomes a rare bird, who nobody will mate with, on his way to extinction.

[Bartje 0]

You said it all man, Canopy piloting is not only flying your canopy it is also a state of mind.

Greetz

Bart

A FreeFly Gypsy

[chrisgr 0]

I hope everyone got this from one of Dave's prior posts ...

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... one of many reasons to follow a slow and methodical canopy progression is that is increases your exposure to a wider variety of situations (weather, off-field, traffic, different DZ's) as you move through the progression.

By the time you're jumping something small and fast, which may be difficult to set down in a small yard or clearing, you have a wide range of experiences under your belt. In bypassing the progression, your students will find themselves ill prepared for basic, survival canopy piloting, which becomes increasingly more difficult as the canopy size goes down.

And now, one of the most important components of a w/l restriction – a canopy flight program that would provide additional training beyond our current student programs …

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1407364#1407364

This type of advanced canopy training should be considered part of any proposal to restrict w/l.

[Bartje 0]

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By the time you're jumping something small and fast, which may be difficult to set down in a small yard or clearing

If you have problems to land your canopy on a small field after 50 jumps you better start thinking to jump an other canopy. It is not the canopy who makes the landing, it is the pilot.

The program I read on this link is good for after AFF.
In the past we organised student weekends. One of the goals was to land in an Cible 50 yards in diameter with a 10 yard dead center.
The things I read on this link I did already in those day's.
I still have the feeling that we have to look forward and not backward for the context for the next canopy course. I'm not speaking for the intermediate pilot but for students with less than 100 jumps.

A FreeFly Gypsy

[chrisgr 0]

Thank you for making our point!

Anyone who has problems safely landing their canopy under any conditions should reconsider their canopy choice. Students and low-time jumpers do not have the practical experience to know what is REALLY an appropriate canopy for their skill level. The w/l restriction would help protect jumpers from learning this the hard way.

It sounds like your past training included landing in a target area that was defined as a circle. This was good for you when you were a low-time jumper … now you have 1600+ jumps and over 10 years of experience.

You are also correct that the new training program is not for you. It is for the students and low-time jumpers who need the extra training and guidance in a structured program that has graduation and licensing requirements.

Is your DZ still hosting student weekends? That’s a nice way to focus on skill development for new jumpers for freefall, canopy safety, gear maintenance, packing, etc. Perhaps you could kick-start the program and help improve the overall safety of your DZ.

[Bartje 0]

I did not organize a student weekend the last 5 years,
I organize pilot gaderings for intermediate pilots.

A FreeFly Gypsy

[Designer 0]

Brain and I have had some great discussions about this.Personally I don't need the shit hottest parachute on the market to go fast.People are gonna do what they want anyway!I if I lend you my Test Parachute and tell you that "You Better Not Hook-Turn it"Don't hook turn!If you do and die I'm gonna come get my rig off your dead ass and piss on you!rabbit(Beef Curtain)

[bobsled92 0]

After seeing the chart and learn why it is....
I find 2 things:
1.) I am in fact, in violations of the chart at present time.
2.) Staying cautious with my canopy while I try to learn from others and know my canopy with pure luck that I OK sor far (not good in the "chances" dept)
I do agree with his book. I have a lot to learn and wish it had been sooner.

_______________________________
If I could be a Super Hero,
I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year.
http://www.hangout.no/speednews/

[davelepka 4]

If your profile is correct, thats an interesting choice. A competition model eliptical canopy, loaded at 1.45, with how many jumps on it? With 150 total it can't be many. If you made any sort of progression to what you have now, you couldn't have many jumps on any canopy.

Why would you jump a canopy that you admit you have to be 'cautious' on? Why would you select one that's so clearly outside of the 'norm'.

That bullshit Atair dishes out about the Cobalt being good for all jumpers from novice to expert is marketing. They're trying to sell canopies. In truth, the Cobalt isn't good for anyone. There are far better choices for whatever you want to do with a canopy.

[bobsled92 0]

My 1st choice was a Sabre2 190.
I demo'ed cobalt and really liked it. I got into Speed jumps and really enjoy the opening. The opening sold me rather than the overall style of the canopy.
I've been very happy with it.
Armed with the knowledge I have now, I wouldn't have bought it then. Now I have to get some canopy lesson for irregular events and general safety of daily uncertainties.
Crazy yes, stupid=no. I do realize I have a "tiger by the tail". my actual load is 1.55
I'm working on "control" accuracy right now for genrel safety sake.

_______________________________
If I could be a Super Hero,
I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year.
http://www.hangout.no/speednews/

[JayhawkJumper 0]

I would probably disagree with the chart. Currently at my wingloading I'm more conservative than the chart recommends. I think if anything, its actually more aggressive than it should be. I'm not eager to downsize, I realize why people would be but its not like waiting another year or two is going to ruin your life, whereas a low hook will ruin your life.

[penniless 0]

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I would probably disagree with the chart. Currently at my wingloading I'm more conservative than the chart recommends. I think if anything, its actually more aggressive than it should be. I'm not eager to downsize, I realize why people would be but its not like waiting another year or two is going to ruin your life, whereas a low hook will ruin your life.

A low hook will indeed ruin your life, but that applies to anyone on any canopy. There is no law saying you have to make low hooks if you downsize.

[mattjw916 2]

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I would probably disagree with the chart. Currently at my wingloading I'm more conservative than the chart recommends. I think if anything, its actually more aggressive than it should be. I'm not eager to downsize, I realize why people would be but its not like waiting another year or two is going to ruin your life, whereas a low hook will ruin your life.

I think you have perhaps lost perspective on what it is like to fly canopies loaded under 1:1 that are 200sq ft and larger, esp at sea level, if you think the chart is aggressive. I could see the potential for a lot more out landings since they are so much more sensitive to bad spotting and wind conditions. My $0.02.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[cloud9 0]

I,m not replying to anybody in this thread but woud like to know one thing. Has B.Germain seen anyone that he would say has not heeded to his wing loading chart that has done well or maybe even surprised him? "No one can answer this except Brian of course, but I'm sure some wantebe's will jump in.

[davelepka 4]

It's been stated several times that there are exceptions to every rule. In truth, I prefer to see the exceptions to this rule, because the ones who validate it have been injured in doing so.

The trouble is in defining who is the exception beforehand. If you are incorrect, you are satcking the cards against that person with an agressive canopy choice.

[Dutton 0]

You are flogging a decomposed horse Dave. The last time I looked at my canopy it had a big orange warning label that already has a wing loading chart on it. If there was ever a good reason for a skydiver to learn to read, that label would be it. BUT, we all know you just can't tell some people what to do... If you insist on packing it in on a canopy you have been repeatedly told you can't handle, well... More food and air for the rest of us! Unfortunately these meatheads are usually the ones who think it is a bright idea to swoop downwind in a crowded landing area.

[drewcarp 0]

Brian's chart says that I should be jumping a 270 (248 MIN) and I weigh 215 WITH gear including the 40sf add for density altitude which is often 8000ft+ in the summer in CO. Am I adding that all up right? I don't see anyone but AFF students jumping 260sf+ canopies so i bought a Pilot 210 but I'm considering trying to trade it for a 7 cell 230 that would fit in my M6, is that still too small?

Should I really be looking for a 260/280, even though I only weigh 215 out the door, for a first canopy?

[ShayneH 0]

No. You're barely loading the pilot 210 that you bought at 1:1. Yes, the altitude density in Colorado can get quite high in the summer. But that will not be a bad first canopy.

I'm assuming that you jump at Mile-Hi. They offer a 5 jump canopy coaching program that I would suggest you take.

Edit: I see that you've been jumping for four years. How many jumps do you have and how frequently do you jump?

[ksudiver87 0]

A chart is mearly suggestions of one persons experience in the sport. I"m 100lbs, so i'm not a fan of it, No offense to any 'chart' lovers With in reason, you need to find what is comfortable and safe for YOU, not whats considered safe by someone who doesn't know you.

~Always do stupid things safely~

[gilead1 0]

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A chart is mearly suggestions of one persons experience in the sport.....

Yes, one person with a hell lot of experience,
I strongly suggest you to read his book and watch some of his video, It my save your ass one day!!!!