somethinelse 0 #1 October 5, 2004 I know this seems to be something everybody KNOWS... ...But ME! Please inform me, okay? I'm sure that I've seen it...MAYBE? But never has anybody ever talked it over with me or explained it. Somebody fill me in and give me the scoop on the hook turn swoop. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lifewithoutanet 0 #2 October 5, 2004 Hook Turn Edited to add: More info is available in Brian Germain's The Parachute and its Pilot. There's a lot more to it than just turning low to the ground. Simply doing that will get you a tour of the local ER or worse. Whether or not you want to swoop, this book should be required reading for any skydiver. -C. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyhighkiy 0 #3 October 5, 2004 watch what warren does close to the ground on his toggles, and then never, ever copy him BE THE BUDDHA! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kaerock 1 #4 October 5, 2004 Just a side note: "hook-turn" has such a stigma attached to it, people usually refer to it generally as a "swoop" these days. A hook implies something rather reckless, where as a swoop is or can be something elegant. When someone refers to someone that "hooked-in" they can often mean it was a swoop gone bad. When someone "swooped" it was usually successful. These minor differences in semantics vary from dropzone to dropzone. -R QuoteI know this seems to be something everybody KNOWS... ...But ME! Please inform me, okay? I'm sure that I've seen it...MAYBE? But never has anybody ever talked it over with me or explained it. Somebody fill me in and give me the scoop on the hook turn swoop. You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flyhi 24 #5 October 5, 2004 I asked the same question when I was informed we weren't allowed to do it at a certain location. I was told it was an aggressive turn initiated by either toggle or riser, that, below 200 feet, the generated forces swung the body of the jumper more than 30 degrees from vertical. Take it with a grain of NaCl.Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites somethinelse 0 #6 October 5, 2004 Cool. Just read thru Dan Poynter's & Mike Turoff's book...and will be sure to check out Brian G's next. Blues! -LiLa. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites brenthutch 384 #7 October 7, 2004 Quotewatch what warren does close to the ground on his toggles, and then never, ever copy him Dont be Wippy the toggle monkey! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 1234hutch 0 #8 October 7, 2004 Just to emphasis the point. A hook turn is a screwed up swoop. Really it's a hard toggle turn close enough to the ground that you have ZERO chance of swinging under the parachute and getting level. hutch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites somethinelse 0 #9 October 7, 2004 Hmmm. VERY WELL PUT. I can understand THAT! PS I'm NOT trying anything new OR risky any time in the near future, TRUST me on that... BUT- Can you explain the procedure and factors involved in landing in a swoop? It'll give me something else to think about & MAYBE I'll try it too someday AFTER taking canopy course...!? Blues! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #10 October 7, 2004 Quote Can you explain the procedure and factors involved in landing in a swoop? It'll give me something else to think about & MAYBE I'll try it too someday AFTER taking canopy course...!? Lila, how far do you travel horizonally from when you first flare till you come to a stop? With the student canopies flaring may be like slamming on the brakes, but most people plane out and glide horizonally for a distance before touching down. I don't know at what distance that is considered a swoop, but the best ones can do it for hundreds of feet. To get that sort of distance, they need to do an aggressive dive to get higher speed than you would just flying in full glide. You've likely seen some diving down in a spiral turn and then flattening out. Hook turn is a swoop where they don't pull out in time, or perhaps where they got lucky and saved it. No one would use that term to refer to a panicked, low altitude turn, would they? While you don't ever need to swoop, you do want to know when and how you can do course corrections close to touchdown. A lot of those situations are avoidable by planning up higher, but you never know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Fast 0 #11 October 7, 2004 the uspa defines it as QuoteHOOK TURN: (jar.) A canopy maneuver that results in a steep dive. You have lots of experience and such but I think your pushing it when saying that a Hook turn is something that results in injury. Maybe your just trying to make a point to someone who is new. I don't know. Making it sound like if you do a hook turn your going to die seems to be a stretch. At my DZ Hop'n'pops are sometimes refered to as Hop'n'Hooks. Even a carving front riser dive is sorta a hook. That and I watch someone do hook turns in the traditional toggle whip sense every week and he isn't dead. (I would bet there are a few other DZs out there too that have people similar who have been doing it so long thats all they do) I don't know, it just felt like this thread got a little too close to the hook = death mark. Is the point of not saying front riser dives are hook turns supposed to try and get away from the negative connotation? I would guess that incidents about a messed up front riser 270 are still considred hook turn accidents.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #12 October 8, 2004 Quote You have lots of experience and such but I think your pushing it when saying that a Hook turn is something that results in injury. Maybe your just trying to make a point to someone who is new. I don't know. Making it sound like if you do a hook turn your going to die seems to be a stretch. I don't think you're referring to me (and my vast experience), but I do recall virtually this exact line out of the Survival Series videos- I think the Fly like a Pro one. For consistency it's probably better to follow the USPA definition, but a lot of people use the other one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dayle 0 #13 October 8, 2004 As far as I know, and have been led to understand a hook turn is called a hook turn because of the shape of the path of the jumper as he comes in for landing. It can be done with either a toggle or by using a front riser. Basically it is a radical change in direction that points the canopy directly towards the ground in a dive. The jumper underneath tends to pendullum under the canopy in the shape of a hook. Hook turns do not equal a screwed up swoop. The problem with a "hook" is that if you don't initiate at the correct altitude, there is nothing you can do you will dive into the ground. With a "carve" you generally have the option of bailing out at any time. Take it with a grain of salt, I don't hvae that much experience. Dayle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ManBird 0 #14 October 8, 2004 A "hook turn" is a special time in a boy's life when he first considers a career in pornography or the grey market."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyhighkiy 0 #15 October 9, 2004 Quotethere is nothing you can do you will dive into the ground. see B. Germaine pg 66 "bottom end stab" "on most canopies, the pilot is able to recover from a coordinated turn or dive within about two seconds. That is assuming, of course, that there is line tension" BE THE BUDDHA! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Opie 0 #16 October 9, 2004 It's a hookturn if you have to go the the hospital, otherwise it's a high performance landing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites obi 0 #17 October 9, 2004 Quote ... an aggressive turn initiated by either toggle or riser, that, below 200 feet, ... I would love to have the dude explain that to me and then hook it from 700ft. I always knew it's good to start your turns higher Seriously, I don't agree with many of you here: originally, a hook was simply the term for a snap turn to pick up speed for landing. When people started doing hp-landings, we just didn't know yet that you get more speed and better control with a smoother turn. We jsut wanted to make the canopy dive. World champions were doing snap turns. And: with Sabres (1) you just can't carve in from 700 ft. Now that most people are doing smoother turns I still refer to a hook as a snap turn. You can make a nice hook, and you don't even have to kill yourself to do so. But, for the novices: don't learn the old school stuff, go for smooth carves and stay alive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites somethinelse 0 #18 October 9, 2004 WOW. Very nicely explained. I like THAT! I'm just really curious, and need to know, but don't want to look like a fool at the dz, for seemingly asking a qustion everybody seems to think that everybody already knows- somehow! I'm just starting to downsize from my 280 to a 220... and already found even on the one jump on it so far, that reactions intensify in the smaller chutes! Really need to get a feel for what I'm on, with what I'm learning... But REALLY look forward to being competent enough to take a canopy course - HAND ON- and really having some fun under the chute! BLUES!- LiLa. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
lifewithoutanet 0 #2 October 5, 2004 Hook Turn Edited to add: More info is available in Brian Germain's The Parachute and its Pilot. There's a lot more to it than just turning low to the ground. Simply doing that will get you a tour of the local ER or worse. Whether or not you want to swoop, this book should be required reading for any skydiver. -C. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyhighkiy 0 #3 October 5, 2004 watch what warren does close to the ground on his toggles, and then never, ever copy him BE THE BUDDHA! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kaerock 1 #4 October 5, 2004 Just a side note: "hook-turn" has such a stigma attached to it, people usually refer to it generally as a "swoop" these days. A hook implies something rather reckless, where as a swoop is or can be something elegant. When someone refers to someone that "hooked-in" they can often mean it was a swoop gone bad. When someone "swooped" it was usually successful. These minor differences in semantics vary from dropzone to dropzone. -R QuoteI know this seems to be something everybody KNOWS... ...But ME! Please inform me, okay? I'm sure that I've seen it...MAYBE? But never has anybody ever talked it over with me or explained it. Somebody fill me in and give me the scoop on the hook turn swoop. You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyhi 24 #5 October 5, 2004 I asked the same question when I was informed we weren't allowed to do it at a certain location. I was told it was an aggressive turn initiated by either toggle or riser, that, below 200 feet, the generated forces swung the body of the jumper more than 30 degrees from vertical. Take it with a grain of NaCl.Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
somethinelse 0 #6 October 5, 2004 Cool. Just read thru Dan Poynter's & Mike Turoff's book...and will be sure to check out Brian G's next. Blues! -LiLa. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 384 #7 October 7, 2004 Quotewatch what warren does close to the ground on his toggles, and then never, ever copy him Dont be Wippy the toggle monkey! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1234hutch 0 #8 October 7, 2004 Just to emphasis the point. A hook turn is a screwed up swoop. Really it's a hard toggle turn close enough to the ground that you have ZERO chance of swinging under the parachute and getting level. hutch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
somethinelse 0 #9 October 7, 2004 Hmmm. VERY WELL PUT. I can understand THAT! PS I'm NOT trying anything new OR risky any time in the near future, TRUST me on that... BUT- Can you explain the procedure and factors involved in landing in a swoop? It'll give me something else to think about & MAYBE I'll try it too someday AFTER taking canopy course...!? Blues! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #10 October 7, 2004 Quote Can you explain the procedure and factors involved in landing in a swoop? It'll give me something else to think about & MAYBE I'll try it too someday AFTER taking canopy course...!? Lila, how far do you travel horizonally from when you first flare till you come to a stop? With the student canopies flaring may be like slamming on the brakes, but most people plane out and glide horizonally for a distance before touching down. I don't know at what distance that is considered a swoop, but the best ones can do it for hundreds of feet. To get that sort of distance, they need to do an aggressive dive to get higher speed than you would just flying in full glide. You've likely seen some diving down in a spiral turn and then flattening out. Hook turn is a swoop where they don't pull out in time, or perhaps where they got lucky and saved it. No one would use that term to refer to a panicked, low altitude turn, would they? While you don't ever need to swoop, you do want to know when and how you can do course corrections close to touchdown. A lot of those situations are avoidable by planning up higher, but you never know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Fast 0 #11 October 7, 2004 the uspa defines it as QuoteHOOK TURN: (jar.) A canopy maneuver that results in a steep dive. You have lots of experience and such but I think your pushing it when saying that a Hook turn is something that results in injury. Maybe your just trying to make a point to someone who is new. I don't know. Making it sound like if you do a hook turn your going to die seems to be a stretch. At my DZ Hop'n'pops are sometimes refered to as Hop'n'Hooks. Even a carving front riser dive is sorta a hook. That and I watch someone do hook turns in the traditional toggle whip sense every week and he isn't dead. (I would bet there are a few other DZs out there too that have people similar who have been doing it so long thats all they do) I don't know, it just felt like this thread got a little too close to the hook = death mark. Is the point of not saying front riser dives are hook turns supposed to try and get away from the negative connotation? I would guess that incidents about a messed up front riser 270 are still considred hook turn accidents.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #12 October 8, 2004 Quote You have lots of experience and such but I think your pushing it when saying that a Hook turn is something that results in injury. Maybe your just trying to make a point to someone who is new. I don't know. Making it sound like if you do a hook turn your going to die seems to be a stretch. I don't think you're referring to me (and my vast experience), but I do recall virtually this exact line out of the Survival Series videos- I think the Fly like a Pro one. For consistency it's probably better to follow the USPA definition, but a lot of people use the other one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dayle 0 #13 October 8, 2004 As far as I know, and have been led to understand a hook turn is called a hook turn because of the shape of the path of the jumper as he comes in for landing. It can be done with either a toggle or by using a front riser. Basically it is a radical change in direction that points the canopy directly towards the ground in a dive. The jumper underneath tends to pendullum under the canopy in the shape of a hook. Hook turns do not equal a screwed up swoop. The problem with a "hook" is that if you don't initiate at the correct altitude, there is nothing you can do you will dive into the ground. With a "carve" you generally have the option of bailing out at any time. Take it with a grain of salt, I don't hvae that much experience. Dayle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ManBird 0 #14 October 8, 2004 A "hook turn" is a special time in a boy's life when he first considers a career in pornography or the grey market."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyhighkiy 0 #15 October 9, 2004 Quotethere is nothing you can do you will dive into the ground. see B. Germaine pg 66 "bottom end stab" "on most canopies, the pilot is able to recover from a coordinated turn or dive within about two seconds. That is assuming, of course, that there is line tension" BE THE BUDDHA! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Opie 0 #16 October 9, 2004 It's a hookturn if you have to go the the hospital, otherwise it's a high performance landing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites obi 0 #17 October 9, 2004 Quote ... an aggressive turn initiated by either toggle or riser, that, below 200 feet, ... I would love to have the dude explain that to me and then hook it from 700ft. I always knew it's good to start your turns higher Seriously, I don't agree with many of you here: originally, a hook was simply the term for a snap turn to pick up speed for landing. When people started doing hp-landings, we just didn't know yet that you get more speed and better control with a smoother turn. We jsut wanted to make the canopy dive. World champions were doing snap turns. And: with Sabres (1) you just can't carve in from 700 ft. Now that most people are doing smoother turns I still refer to a hook as a snap turn. You can make a nice hook, and you don't even have to kill yourself to do so. But, for the novices: don't learn the old school stuff, go for smooth carves and stay alive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites somethinelse 0 #18 October 9, 2004 WOW. Very nicely explained. I like THAT! I'm just really curious, and need to know, but don't want to look like a fool at the dz, for seemingly asking a qustion everybody seems to think that everybody already knows- somehow! I'm just starting to downsize from my 280 to a 220... and already found even on the one jump on it so far, that reactions intensify in the smaller chutes! Really need to get a feel for what I'm on, with what I'm learning... But REALLY look forward to being competent enough to take a canopy course - HAND ON- and really having some fun under the chute! BLUES!- LiLa. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
kelpdiver 2 #10 October 7, 2004 Quote Can you explain the procedure and factors involved in landing in a swoop? It'll give me something else to think about & MAYBE I'll try it too someday AFTER taking canopy course...!? Lila, how far do you travel horizonally from when you first flare till you come to a stop? With the student canopies flaring may be like slamming on the brakes, but most people plane out and glide horizonally for a distance before touching down. I don't know at what distance that is considered a swoop, but the best ones can do it for hundreds of feet. To get that sort of distance, they need to do an aggressive dive to get higher speed than you would just flying in full glide. You've likely seen some diving down in a spiral turn and then flattening out. Hook turn is a swoop where they don't pull out in time, or perhaps where they got lucky and saved it. No one would use that term to refer to a panicked, low altitude turn, would they? While you don't ever need to swoop, you do want to know when and how you can do course corrections close to touchdown. A lot of those situations are avoidable by planning up higher, but you never know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #11 October 7, 2004 the uspa defines it as QuoteHOOK TURN: (jar.) A canopy maneuver that results in a steep dive. You have lots of experience and such but I think your pushing it when saying that a Hook turn is something that results in injury. Maybe your just trying to make a point to someone who is new. I don't know. Making it sound like if you do a hook turn your going to die seems to be a stretch. At my DZ Hop'n'pops are sometimes refered to as Hop'n'Hooks. Even a carving front riser dive is sorta a hook. That and I watch someone do hook turns in the traditional toggle whip sense every week and he isn't dead. (I would bet there are a few other DZs out there too that have people similar who have been doing it so long thats all they do) I don't know, it just felt like this thread got a little too close to the hook = death mark. Is the point of not saying front riser dives are hook turns supposed to try and get away from the negative connotation? I would guess that incidents about a messed up front riser 270 are still considred hook turn accidents.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #12 October 8, 2004 Quote You have lots of experience and such but I think your pushing it when saying that a Hook turn is something that results in injury. Maybe your just trying to make a point to someone who is new. I don't know. Making it sound like if you do a hook turn your going to die seems to be a stretch. I don't think you're referring to me (and my vast experience), but I do recall virtually this exact line out of the Survival Series videos- I think the Fly like a Pro one. For consistency it's probably better to follow the USPA definition, but a lot of people use the other one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dayle 0 #13 October 8, 2004 As far as I know, and have been led to understand a hook turn is called a hook turn because of the shape of the path of the jumper as he comes in for landing. It can be done with either a toggle or by using a front riser. Basically it is a radical change in direction that points the canopy directly towards the ground in a dive. The jumper underneath tends to pendullum under the canopy in the shape of a hook. Hook turns do not equal a screwed up swoop. The problem with a "hook" is that if you don't initiate at the correct altitude, there is nothing you can do you will dive into the ground. With a "carve" you generally have the option of bailing out at any time. Take it with a grain of salt, I don't hvae that much experience. Dayle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #14 October 8, 2004 A "hook turn" is a special time in a boy's life when he first considers a career in pornography or the grey market."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyhighkiy 0 #15 October 9, 2004 Quotethere is nothing you can do you will dive into the ground. see B. Germaine pg 66 "bottom end stab" "on most canopies, the pilot is able to recover from a coordinated turn or dive within about two seconds. That is assuming, of course, that there is line tension" BE THE BUDDHA! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Opie 0 #16 October 9, 2004 It's a hookturn if you have to go the the hospital, otherwise it's a high performance landing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obi 0 #17 October 9, 2004 Quote ... an aggressive turn initiated by either toggle or riser, that, below 200 feet, ... I would love to have the dude explain that to me and then hook it from 700ft. I always knew it's good to start your turns higher Seriously, I don't agree with many of you here: originally, a hook was simply the term for a snap turn to pick up speed for landing. When people started doing hp-landings, we just didn't know yet that you get more speed and better control with a smoother turn. We jsut wanted to make the canopy dive. World champions were doing snap turns. And: with Sabres (1) you just can't carve in from 700 ft. Now that most people are doing smoother turns I still refer to a hook as a snap turn. You can make a nice hook, and you don't even have to kill yourself to do so. But, for the novices: don't learn the old school stuff, go for smooth carves and stay alive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
somethinelse 0 #18 October 9, 2004 WOW. Very nicely explained. I like THAT! I'm just really curious, and need to know, but don't want to look like a fool at the dz, for seemingly asking a qustion everybody seems to think that everybody already knows- somehow! I'm just starting to downsize from my 280 to a 220... and already found even on the one jump on it so far, that reactions intensify in the smaller chutes! Really need to get a feel for what I'm on, with what I'm learning... But REALLY look forward to being competent enough to take a canopy course - HAND ON- and really having some fun under the chute! BLUES!- LiLa. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
