Rear Risers

[hkf 0]

I've been getting really consistant results with my swooping using a long carving front riser turn, and then using toggles only to plane out.

I want to start preparing for the next stage, which is to use the rears for landing. What I'm looking for is specific drills I can try up high over the next 50 jumps or so to get a real good feel for the rears and how to transition to them.

[Canuck 0]

You will got lots of opinions on this one. Here's what you're gonna get from me as good starters.

Practice reaching for the rears without looking at them, and experiment with different ways of holding/grabbing/pushing/pulling until you find the way that is the most comfortable for you.

Make sure that part of this experimentation includes making sure that however you are going to grab and release the fronts and rears is not going to make you lose a toggle.

Practice high, practice lots. Once you're real comfy with all that, then move on to other drills.

Canuck

[AggieDave 6]

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Practice high, practice lots. Once you're real comfy with all that, then move on to other drills

That's what I did to start using the rears. I've done probably 100 jumps that were altitude clear and pulls (pulling at atleast 10k), on the majority of those jumps I'm flying around other canopies, using all of my control surfaces to keep up, float, slow down or speed up to be relative with them. Over all I've become very comfortable with what the rears feel like, what they feel like when I'm getting close to a stall, transitioning to toggles from the rears to float less and slow down a bit more, etc


Basically one day I was riding to up to 3.5k for a hopitypopity and decided that I was going to use my rears on this landing and I did. It wasn't perfect (they still aren't yet), but I was safe with it and that's the first step.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[hkf 0]

expected to get quite a few opinions on this one which is great, thanks for your ideas this is exactly the sort of stuff I'm looking for

[Canuck 0]

My first time bringing it to the ground was the exact opposite. I had practiced up high tons, but everytime I told myself I was going to use them on landing I would chicken out at the last minute. Then one day after a beautiful sunset tracking dive, without any plan to do so, I decided just as I was coming out of my 270 that now was the time and went for it. Worked out awesome. I love the rears!!

Canuck

[crewkeith 0]

make sure your hook is perfect. if you gotta dig even a little bit bail on the risers and use brakes.


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The skies are no longer safe

I'm back

[Tonto 1]

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if you gotta dig even a little bit bail on the risers and use brakes.

Word. Overamping on the rear risers to dig out can have VERY ugly consequences.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[raymod2 1]

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make sure your hook is perfect. if you gotta dig even a little bit bail on the risers and use brakes.

I'd just like to point out that doing this requires conscious thought. If you just kind of fly by the seat of your pants then you may still go for the rears (out of habit) when you should be going for the toggles. I've had a few premature contacts with the ground because of this.

[jose 0]

Please eloborate on this. I have heard this before, but not been explained well enough. If I remember correctly, this increased the dangers of high speed stalls. I really dont see enough information on this topic, rears and its dangers that is.

[crewkeith 0]

jerry sobieski wrote a paper on advanced areodynamics in '94 it is on skydiver enclave.com i think. uspa has the fine art of swoop survival for ten bucks it should be in any swoopers gear bag. same for brian germaine's new book. all good reading with lots of info. first go to flight one or evolution. they are super pros at answering questions you might have .


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The skies are no longer safe

I'm back

[Tonto 1]

crewkeith has the right idea, and I'm no expert on rear riser flares.

I can't tell you what to do right on your canopy at your DZ on any given day.

You're correct that a high speed stall is a real possibility through over controlling the rear risers - but it's probably the potential canopy collapse directly after that stall that will spoil your day at swoop speeds/altitudes.

In my opinion, if your swoop is perfect, you'll use your rears to increase the length of your swoop while already flying horizontal at ground or below gate level. If your swoop is NOT perfect with even a hint of the need to dig - then its toggles from there on.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[raymod2 1]

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In my opinion, if your swoop is perfect, you'll use your rears to increase the length of your swoop while already flying horizontal at ground or below gate level.

Are you advocating using toggles to plane out and then switching to rears?

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

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In my opinion, if your swoop is perfect, you'll use your rears to increase the length of your swoop while already flying horizontal at ground or below gate level.

Are you advocating using toggles to plane out and then switching to rears?

No, it seems to me that he is simply stating that unless you have a near-perfectly planned and executed turn which results in you needing only minimal rear riser input to "get the rest of the way around the corner", then your subsequent "dig" on your rears will not get you nearly the desired effect.

As you your statement about going toggles-rears-back to toggles, that is exactly what Eric Butts used to do last year.

[Canuck 0]

I really hope that is not what he is meaning, and don't think it is.

Once you have committed to a toggle flare, do not, I repeat, do not, try to switch to the rears. As you reach for them, your toggles go up with your hands, and you just stopped flaring the canopy. I watched a buddy do it this summer. He wasn't hurt badly, but he deffinately skipped off his ass.

Canuck

edited to add:

Damn I hate it when that happens. Chuck and I posted at the same time. Anyway, I stand by my statement - even if Eric use to do it. Unless you have your shit dialled right in - I think going from toggles to rears is asking for trouble.

[hkf 0]

My canopy at my wing loading does not achieve level flight on it's own after the dive, it always takes just a touch on the toggles to pitch it up into level flight, so I guess it'll be just a little pinch on the rears to plain it out.
I know the sight picture real good for the recovery arc on this canopy, and will only use rears when I know it's all good.
That said I'm gonna be doing at least 100 more jumps on it using the rears up high before I bring it down to ground level. Thanks for all the input on this thread, I've found it very useful.

[raymod2 1]

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going toggles-rears-back to toggles, that is exactly what Eric Butts used to do last year.

Did he pick this up as a bad habit or did he have a specific reason for doing so? Did it have a positive/negative/neutral effect on his swoop distance?

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Eric did not trust that his Competition Cobalt 120 on rears enough to "get around the corner." He felt it was far too mushy at the time, so he would get around the corner on toggles, transition to rears for about three seconds, then go back to toggles to finish out. He did that on every round of Distance in the PST meet at Panama City. Eric has competed professionally since 2000, albeit quite randomly these past two years. You would have to ask him what prompted him to start landing like that, but I hear that he is now doing more traditional rear-riser landings under the same canopy.

[Tonto 1]

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Are you advocating using toggles to plane out and then switching to rears?

No.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[nicknitro71 0]

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Word. Overamping on the rear risers to dig out can have VERY ugly consequences

Rear risers + gusty winds + drag from WS = broken L2, L3 and right ankle.

After that I pretty much said fuck rear risers!

It's all good!

Memento Audere Semper

903

[dzguy99 0]

Just wanted to share a positive about getting used to rear risers. I regularly use them when landing but finish with toggles.

Busy day at the DZ so I had a relatively newbie packer pack for me. After deploying my Velocity after an AFF jump I was slammed so hard I found myself with broken steering lines and a damaged slider. After doing steerabilty and flaring practices I elected to land with rear risers and it came off uneventfully.

(changed back to my regular packer immediately!)

[softopening 0]

"My canopy at my wing loading does not achieve level flight on it's own after the dive, it always takes just a touch on the toggles to pitch it up into level flight, so I guess it'll be just a little pinch on the rears to plain it out."

This just proves you do not have a fing clue about the physics of your canopy and how a parachute flies. Do you really think you should be going anywhere near a rear riser landing if this is the case?
Do yourself and everyone on the group a favour and go and really learn about the parachute before posting stupid comments. There are good canopy courses out there - you do not have the experience to be banding your opinions around so wind your neck in or you're gonna get someone hurt.

[jose 0]

Rofl, nice bio.

Do you really want to give your opinion or just flame this guy........no one is going to give 2 shits about your comments when you go about it like such a coward.

[softopening 0]

Thats the funny thing i do give two shits when i watch people hurt themselves because you idiots on this forum have your heads up your asses and try and do stuff with your canopy with no understanding. discussing some manoeuvre close to the ground with a bunch of low experienced jumpers on a forum does not give you the right to endanger yourself or more importantly other people. Dont ask about this stuff here - go talk to the canopy coaches and spend some money investing in your safety.

[jose 0]

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discussing some manoeuvre close to the ground with a bunch of low experienced jumpers on a forum does not give you the right to endanger yourself or more importantly other people. Dont ask about this stuff here - go talk to the canopy coaches and spend some money investing in your safety.

I couldn't agree more. Just add some credibility to what you have to offer by putting a name and experience to it. If you think it will do no good, as it usually doesn't here, why post it at all? It's just a waste of your time ya know?

I understand where you are coming from bud, I have a friend that just went from a xfire119 to a vx94 with around 600+ jumps. He KNOWS that its too quick, but bought it anyways cause the price was right. On top of it, hes playing around with rears on his apporoaches now. Yeah, it pisses me off too dude....

[hkf 0]

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"My canopy at my wing loading does not achieve level flight on it's own after the dive, it always takes just a touch on the toggles to pitch it up into level flight, so I guess it'll be just a little pinch on the rears to plain it out."

This just proves you do not have a fing clue about the physics of your canopy and how a parachute flies. Do you really think you should be going anywhere near a rear riser landing if this is the case?
Do yourself and everyone on the group a favour and go and really learn about the parachute before posting stupid comments. There are good canopy courses out there - you do not have the experience to be banding your opinions around so wind your neck in or you're gonna get someone hurt.

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This just proves you do not have a fing clue about the physics of your canopy and how a parachute flies.

I disagree! All I have said here is that after diving my canopy, some input is required to achieve level flight. I made this statement based on my experience of flying my canopy. If you read Brian Germains book, there is a large section on recovery arcs and nothing he says contradicts my statement.
I would appreciate comments from any highly experienced people as to what if anything they think is wrong with my statement.

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Do you really think you should be going anywhere near a rear riser landing if this is the case?

If this was the case then no I shouldn't.
If you had read the thread you would see that my question was about specific drills I can try up high

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There are good canopy courses out there

I know there are, I have had lots of canopy coaching, both on courses and informal.
All the coaching has been from people who finished in the top 20 of last years World cup of canopy piloting (Chris Lynch, Cisco & JC)
Strange, but their response to my statement about my canopy needing some input to achieve level flight was somewhat different to yours, but perhaps you know better than them.

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you do not have the experience to be banding your opinions around so wind your neck in or you're gonna get someone hurt.

I have not given any opinion whatsoever, I'M THE ONE ASKING THE QUESTION.
I have only asked a question and given some information about my canopy at my wingloading to help others be able to answer my question.


I agree that sometimes there are people in this forum who are not in any way qualified to give advice on swooping, and I include myself. When it comes to swooping I am a student.
I also think there are some very experienced people with a lot of information that is worth sharing.
Certain aspects of swooping are definatley unsafe to learn in a forum, I have already been on a number of courses, and was merley asking if anybody knew of any good drills to practice up high for rear risers. Even if I had been on a thousand courses I would still be open to ideas from experienced canopy pilots.

Thanks for the personal attack