Canopy Question:

[SuZQflies 0]

All of the advice given so far has been excellent. The question you ask cannot be answered in any subjective manner. Using the "checklist"... of Seven Things to do Before you Downsize", you have some objective method to assess your skills.

May I add the suggestion that taking a canopy control class with your CURRENT canopy and gaining further objective measures would be a very helpful adjunct to your decision. I was told that you should nail all of the requirements for C license, CONSISTENTLY, before you are advised to try downsizing.

Also, does your DZ have anything resembling a swoop club or canopy control practice? You can learn so much by watching others and working on accuracy.

Finally, make sure to take advantage of Demo opportunities even when you're "sure" you're ready.

Just 2 more cents......... Play safe!!

Dr. "Q" PMS#151Shugah,Shugah,How'd Ya Git So Fly?

[Courteney 0]

I think what you're got now is a cool size and you should really fly it to it's fullest. A 135 in the right hands and conditions can perform well beyond expectations. I've seen guys on 135's out swoop those with 103's and 96's.

...drags me down like some sweet gravity!!!

[diveout 0]

In my humble opinion as a canopy competitor and instructor, kim is acually downsizing too soon. I have seen her land her sabre 2's and she is definitely not flying her 135 to it's full potential (I'd say she knows how I feel about her flying the 120)

There are a lot of exceptional canopy pilots at our dropzone, and kim has a chance to be one of them but she is rushing it. She sees superstu and renfro and the brians and I swooping 250-300 feet in no wind when we hold our mini $5 buy in swoop comps and she wants to swoop too --what she doesn't realize is that stu and I both spent like 400 jumps under moderately loaded canopyies learning the skills that allow us to safely fly our pocket rockets. Stu is a very new HP canopy pilot but he is rock solid.

As far as jump #'s I've seen intermediate PST competitors with 600 jumps rear-riser cross-braced loaded at 2.1 to a full stop. Some people dedicate their whole world to HP canpopy flight and get it dialed in really quickly, but even these guys spent time on larger canopies when they were learning about HP landings, which is where Kim is right now.

Kudos to her for staying ultra-current and asking the right questions of the right people but my $.02 is that she's moving a bit to quickly.

[Kimblair13 0]

OK...I guess this post didn't produce the info I was looking for . I was merely wondering what kind of canopy to buy, not whether or not I should stay at my current WL. Thanks for everyones concern though. Yes, I do know diveout thinks I should stay on my S2 135, he's told me that. At the same time there's at least five other people at my DZ saying I'd be fine. Anyway, it comes down to my decision, whether it be a good or bad one and I've put 9 jumps on the impulse now and like it a lot and almost have my S2 sold, so yeah I guess until I scare the shit out of myself I'll go with this one. I'll just have to put up with people asking why, I think I'll go with "just because".

[AggieDave 6]

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o yeah I guess until I scare the shit out of myself I'll go with this one. I

Well, if that's what you want to do, then good luck. I'm not going to cry if I read about you in Parachutist.


Yeah, sounds harsh, but I'm tired of this shit happening and have basically reached a point that I don't give a shit after people quit listening to those with more experience. Sure, X said it was ok, but Y says its not, hey, I got Z to say its ok as well, so it must be fine.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Kimblair13 0]

I'm ok with you not crying. I don't think it's harsh...but...what do you mean by "but I'm tired of this shit happening and have basically reached a point that I don't give a shit after people quit listening to those with more experience"?
OK...who do you read about in Parachutist and the incidents forum spanking in? Oh that's right...high speed landing this, high speed landing that, hoot turn that, 270 this. Oh that's right, "experienced" people trying hot shit.
Date Country Category Cause of Death
2004-04-11 United Kingdom Landing Hard landing while making a low turn
2004-01-21 Australia Landing Hard landing while making a low turn
2004-01-21 updated South Africa Landing Impact with slowly-moving truck after low turn
2004-01-18 Netherlands Landing Hard landing while making a low turn
2004-01-03 United States Landing Hard downwind landing after a low turn
The only one with a really low amount of jumps is one...most these dudes are "experienced". Maybe they should have listened to the advice they were giving. Also, I'm not gonna start doing HP landings for a long while. I mainly wanted this canopy to have more fun in the air, faster turns up high and have a lil more speed when coming in straight. Ok I didn't want to come across as a bitch but after reading this maybe I do a little but I'm sorry. Aggie Dave this is not only towards you so don't take it as a personal stab. I will be safe and if some shit comes up and I get hurt, I know fully well what I was getting into and won't expect sympathy from anyone except maybe my mommy.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Yearly it's actually it's about 50/50 - a low turn doesn't necessarily mean the pilot was trying to do a HP landing. There are just as many people reacting to circumstances as there are low HP turns.

It's also worth noting that of the 50% who died doing HP low turns, most of them had less than 1000 jumps. In fact, if memory serves, an overwhelming majority had less than 500 jumps.

Of course you know it all though.

Ian
EDIT: Something else to remember is that NO-ONE and I mean NO-ONE isn't capable of making a mistake. You cannot do HP landings with no risk, no matter what anyone tells you. It can happen to any of us...it only takes once.

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Kimblair13 0]

A : yes i am aware that it's not all HP landings
B : yes i am aware they all weren't jumpers with very high numbers

Aggie Dave was implicitly implying that all the fatalities are jumpers who have a low number of jumps with a high WL and that if only they were to have listened to people like him they would be ok. I was just stating that experienced people can also mess up.

C : I do not know it all, not even close

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Aggie Dave was implicitly implying that all the fatalities are jumpers who have a low number of jumps with a high WL and that if only they were to have listened to people like him they would be ok. I was just stating that experienced people can also mess up.

My apologies, I read it as you saying it was only HP jumpers who screwed up.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[AggieDave 6]

Hey, I'm not talking across the board, I'm just talking about the ones I've personally seen, the ones I've had to talk to while waiting for Careflight to arrive and the ones I've seen buried.

Stay in the sport a while, get some more experience then you'll understand what I'm talking about. You'll also look back at this conversation (if you remember it) and realize what I was saying and you'll actually understand.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Aviatrr 0]

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Yeah, sounds harsh, but I'm tired of this shit happening and have basically reached a point that I don't give a shit after people quit listening to those with more experience. Sure, X said it was ok, but Y says its not, hey, I got Z to say its ok as well, so it must be fine.

Unfortunately, it's not just a phenomenon on dz.com....but thoughout the industry. I feel the same way, though....and I expect others to feel the same if I pound in under a good canopy. I fly a high wingloading for my experience, but I know that...and accept the risks. Too many people don't understand the risks, but since somebody told them it would be OK....everybody else is just wrong to tell them it's not OK. Oh well....can't save everybody from themselves.

Mike

[kaerock 1]

Perhaps you should try a different approach to those with less experience if the method you use doesn't seem effective. Certainly being a broken record won't change anyone's mind. A mark of an excellent teacher is they are able to convey the same piece of information in different ways dependent upon the way the student learns.

That's what I shoot for, anyhow.

One method that does not work in almost any circumstance is "when you hurt yourself, because you will, all I'll do is say I told you so", and its variations.

Fight ignorance with knowledge and education, not with fear and ultimatums.

-Rory

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o yeah I guess until I scare the shit out of myself I'll go with this one. I

Well, if that's what you want to do, then good luck. I'm not going to cry if I read about you in Parachutist.


Yeah, sounds harsh, but I'm tired of this shit happening and have basically reached a point that I don't give a shit after people quit listening to those with more experience. Sure, X said it was ok, but Y says its not, hey, I got Z to say its ok as well, so it must be fine.

You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE

[diveout 0]

The only true test of whether it is "OK" will be over the next several months of the season when kim flies her 120 on a regular basis.

It is entirely likely the she will develop into a good canopy pilot and do just fine under a 120, plenty of people have been at her wing loading and her jump numbers without incident, but some haven't --and herein lies the rub.

Whenever people ask my advice I always tell them honestly what I think, even if I know my advice will conflict with another person's. There is a huge tendency in our sport to say "Just stay on your toes and you'll be fine" For the most part this is true, but what happens if you have to land crosswind in a backyard? What if you get cut off on final by another canopy pilot who didn't see you- it can turn into bad times in a hurry-

[TALONSKY 0]

I will be safe and if some shit comes up and I get hurt, I know fully well what I was getting into and won't expect sympathy from anyone except maybe my mommy.
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The one thing I can tell you from my experience of blowing throw the wingloadings quickly is that you may think you know the extra dangers of a change in canopy or wing loading. It is only when you are put in a bad situation that the true dangers of the change will come into view. Every change to faster and elliptical canopies ups the anti so to speak in an emergency or turns what would have been a simple fix problem into an emergency.
Kirk
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[AggieDave 6]

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Fight ignorance with knowledge and education, not with fear and ultimatums

I guess this is the mark of frustration on the part of me posting here. In person this definately isn't my approach, although I have had to use it before, that was the only way I could reach this guy and luckily, it worked.

*shrug*

Honestly, at this point, I really doubt I'm going to post anymore about this to anyone, unless I personally know them. I'm tired of dealing with the same issues with people I don't even know.

If it looks like a bad situation from here on the other side of the computer screen, then surely it is the same there in person and there will be people on their DZ telling them the same things anyone here would say.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."