Sabre 2 170 Observations & Advice Please

[StearmanR985 0]

My demo did indeed arrive on Friday and I was able to jump it 7 times this weekend. All landings were walk outs and nothing is broke. I will be doing a dozen more within the next 10 days.

Observations as compared to my Tri 175:
More forward speed.
Cut into the wind much better.
Lost altitude quicker with any type of turn.
Canopy reaction to toggle input was quite smooth.
Turns are tight.
Flare is controlled and smooth, but sometimes not as powerful as expected which leads to my request for advice.

I found my 'best' flares to be after a gentle front riser carve. The increased speed over the Tri was fun (a bit intimidating but only at first) and was quite easy to bleed off. Also, there was good 'feel' to toggle input during flare with this type of approach.

On my 7th jump I did a straight and easy (no fronts) approach (due to setting up way to high ) and found this to be my 'worst' flare. I did not really get the power flare I was expecting and had to jog this one out. I used a two stage flare on this one, perhaps I started the first stage just a bit too high.

How about some valuable advice: Sabre 2, a two stage flare or a smooth from start to finish flare? So far. The two stage does not seem the way to go but I do only have 7 jumps on it. Also, my first step seems to be a bit of a hard impact. I have not figured out if I am flaring a little high still or if maybe I am reaching with my foot. Do you think the start point of flare for the Sabre 2 is a bit lower than with a Tri? It sure seems that way to me so far...

Alright fellow jumpers, bring it: All useful advice would be appreciated.
Jeff

[ianmdrennan 2]

I've never really liked the idea of teaching a 2 stage flare (I understand it's necessity). I prefer a smoother approach throughout the entire flare, from start to finish. You should be able to comfortably land that canopy with no additional speed enhancing maneuvers.

My guess is that you either started the flare too high and lacked sufficient forward speed at an above normal height to soften the landing or that you flared late, had to power on the flare, and killed a lot of your available lift. My guess goes with a higher flare seeing as you talk about normally using fronts (so generally the flare will start a little higher).

Get someone to video the landing, a lot can often be learned about how the canopy is reacting and how you're actually flaring it (including height).

I can land straight in and still get a great landing, no reason (other than technique) you couldn't get the same under the sabre2. Forget about introducing speed for the first couple of landings (especially on a new canopy), get them pegged first, then add the speed afterwards.

For every canopy I've owned, I've "started" my flight progression from the beginning (flat turns, straight in approaches, rear risers up high, etc). It's a recipe for success in my opinion.

Jump it more, learn more about it, stay safe and it'll treat you well.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Kris 0]

Agreed, Ian. It does sound like he's flaring too high.

I've jumped a Sabre2 demo loaded at 1.5, and even on a no-wind day, I never had to take more than one or two steps on touchdown.

It's really spooky when you start bringing your flare height down, but once you have the proper timing and technique dialed in, it will serve you well no matter what the landing conditions. Your flare will also be so much more efficient as well.

Another thing to look at is how much slack there is in the brake lines. If there is a ton of slack (like there was on the demo I tried) he won't have as much to put into the flare.

Jeff, you should not have to carve (or hook) any canopy to get a decent landing out of it. Once you slow down to normal speed it's a regular landing anyway. If you have to induce speed to get a good landing your experience level isn't up to the task.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[StearmanR985 0]

Hey guys thanks for the input.

I didn't mean to imply that I needed to carve for better landings I just enjoy doing small front riser carves and it just happened that I noticed the flare to be a bit easier to work with.

I assume that the best way to check brake line slack is during flight? How much slack do you think is appropriate? If there is too much slack, is there and appropriate way to double wrap the lines around your hands?

Again, thanks.

Jeff

[ianmdrennan 2]

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I didn't mean to imply that I needed to carve for better landings I just enjoy doing small front riser carves and it just happened that I noticed the flare to be a bit easier to work with.

No problem, we're just saying that increased speed changes your flare height, so without the higher decent rate your flare could be too high if that's what you're used to. Video will help figure this one out (or just an experienced person watching).

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I assume that the best way to check brake line slack is during flight? How much slack do you think is appropriate? If there is too much slack, is there and appropriate way to double wrap the lines around your hands?

I find that *most* times people complain that there is too much line slack, it's because they have lazy flares - so make sure you're doing a full flare all the way down (Not saying you aren't, just saying it's a common thing).

To check brake line slack - If the lines are too short when pulling down on a front riser (in clear airspace up high) there will be deflection of the tail. There should be a reasonable amount of slack line, but not excessive. A very slight bow in the brake lines will do.

Way to check if the brakes are set too long (in clear airspace up high) - slowly apply the brakes until you cannot go any further (careful about stalling). If the canopy is nowhere near stalling (not saying it should stall, but it should start to get "mushy") they're probably too long...that said I know of at least 1 person who needs to take more than 1 wrap to stall the canopy (sabre2 135) and can still land just fine in no winds so it's what you feel comfortable with.

Finally, remember this is a demo. I don't think PD want you fiddling too much with the break settings, but I really don't know their policy on this. Call and find out before making a change to their gear that could affect someone else.

Hope this helps.

Blue skies,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[AggieDave 6]

If its a demo from PD, I will just about 100% guarentee that the brake lines are setup just right for a good flare, but too short for front riser manuevers without deflecting the tail.

This is my experience with PD's factory brake settings, observed with 10 different demos and roughly 20 new canopies (obviously other people's gear).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[ianmdrennan 2]

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If its a demo from PD, I will just about 100% guarentee that the brake lines are setup just right for a good flare, but too short for front riser manuevers without deflecting the tail.

I'd agree but he asked

Performance Designs Factory Team

[StearmanR985 0]

I nor anyone else will be modifying anything on the canopy. I will check for deflection though just for the experience of seeing it if it is there.

I'll get some video and hopefully find someone with experience to watch my landings and advise on flare points.

I do believe I will be ordering one these canopies though. It sure is fun!!

Thanks

[jeiber 0]

I agree with everything mentioned in the above post. I also agree that a single gradual flare is best (IMHO).

You shouldn't need to run out your landings, but we (well, I, anyway. It sounds like you might be flaring a little too slow. The fact that you're touching down hard, then running it out, supports this thought as well.

If you flare slightly faster, you might be able to convert a little more of that forward speed into lift, fixing both your problems.

Have somebody experienced watch/video your landings, they can give much better advice!

Good luck, and I hope you enjoy your Sabre2, I love mine!

J

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[ianmdrennan 2]

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I nor anyone else will be modifying anything on the canopy. I will check for deflection though just for the experience of seeing it if it is there.

Yeah it's a good thing to know about. You can apply it to later canopies that you'll fly as well.

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I do believe I will be ordering one these canopies though. It sure is fun!!

Tell me about it...isn't it just great
Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[nbblood 0]

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I find that *most* times people complain that there is too much line slack, it's because they have lazy flares - so make sure you're doing a full flare all the way down (Not saying you aren't, just saying it's a common thing).

That's exactly what I learned when I started flying my Sabre 2 170. Video and a little coaching and I got it right. Twas a good education.

Blues,
Nathan

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[headoverheels 292]

Hey Jeff,

I doubt that there is so much slack in the lines that you would need to "take a wrap." You're pretty tall, and have plenty of arm length for that flare. When in full flight, look up at the brake lines, which should be a bit bowed back in the wind. Pull down on the toggles until the slack is just taken out. My guess is that it will not be more than 3 or four inches, maybe less. A few local Sabre2 pilots are going to be gone to Florida this coming weekend, but I'm sure Ed or Steve van Horn could video you and give you some good tips.

[StearmanR985 0]

Thanks Gary,

I have been guilty of not flaring all the way (not realizing it) and flaring a bit high at times with the Tri (not so much as of late though). It is probably one or a combo of both of these issues with the Sabre 2. I would imagine I just need to get used to the visual difference of approach angle and speed versus the Tri. I know I am close as my landings weren't too shabby but I want perfection damn it!!

I'll get Lorrie (my SO) to get my landings on video, if I can't figure it out from there I'll hit up Ed or one of the other instructors for assistance.

Jeff

[jkwon 0]

SO YOU'RE the guy with the sabre2170...Anabel told me it was out. :) I look forward to jumping that thing soon. I have the spectre 170 right now...Have you tried it yet? I would like to know what you thought about the landings on this guy...

--joe
HISPA #69
The Best Band in the WORLD!!!
The new full length album "See What You Can Find"

[StearmanR985 0]

Hello Joseph,

Yep, that would be me. Funny thing, I am supposed to be on the list for the Spetre 170 next. We should definitely talk.

Jeff

[Kolla 0]

On a PD demo, the breaks definitely will be on the marks.
However, the length of your risers, the way your rig fits you and how long your arms are varies from one person to the next.

Some people choose to take the breaks in a little bit, some choose to let them out - so that it better accommodates their needs and setup.

If you choose to do that I would suggest getting help from a rigger or a knowledgeable instructor, and make the adjustment in small increments.

Blue ones!
Kolla

Blue Skies Magazine

[raymod2 1]

Like fingernails on the chalkboard. Homonyms really aren't so difficult.

break - something you do to a femur
brake - something you do to slow down

[bobsled92 0]

I don't have vast exp. OR more than a few demos w/ Sabre2 but, it was wonderful. Clean response and plenty or power in the brakes. I maily flew a 220 Tri. before and the demo felt better than, my own canopy at the that time, had felt.
p.s.
Stay conservative and safe. I had 86 jumps when I demoed it and feel the same about my new canopy as I did the Sarbe2

_______________________________
If I could be a Super Hero,
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http://www.hangout.no/speednews/

[headoverheels 292]

Hey Jeff,

How was your second demo weekend?

[StearmanR985 0]

It was good but I did not get to jump as much as I would have liked. Hurt my self playing racquet ball earlier in the week so I had to take it easy.

Anyhow, the canopy is quite fun but I was still having a bit of trouble with flare timing. I got some video and could see that I was snap flaring a bit and not flaring ALL the way at times. Those are 'me' problems and not issues with the canopy though. It has great response to toggle input and it is VERY FUN to fly and land with. I did not notice a 'powerful' flare unless I put a bit of extra speed on it either using dbl. fronts or doing a light carve. With either of these approaches the flare had LOTS more power. In fact on one landing I still needed to bleed off some speed just as my feet were about to touch the ground so I gave the toggles an extra tug and bam, I was 8 feet off the ground. Now that was a powerful flare!! I am looking forward to checking out the Spectre, hopefully soon.

Oh, there is a third canopy I will be checking out as well.

Jeff

[TribalTalon 0]

hmm. well i jumped a sabre 2 170 last week for shits and giggles, and i noticed it didnt respond as quickly as my spectre 170 does. it just seemed more sluggish and seemed to sink quicker then the spectre. *shrugs* i'll keep my spectre, thanks

[Cloggy 1]

I put about 10 jumps on my new Sabre2 (also 170) and I like it a lot! All nice stand-up landings so far. I had a few landings where I had to take a few steps, but that was because I was not flaring fully.

I have just been doing straight-in approaches, no frontrisering. However, I do make sure I come in with "no brakes" to pick up speed.
What I do first is level off, keep flying parallel, and at the right moment flare. Difficult to explain what the right moment is.... I think I flare when I feel there is no energy left to keep flying level.
I found that I have to make the transition to level flight (and to flare) fairly brisk. When I take too long, I just bleef off speed and don't have enough energy left for a good flare.

But there seems to be a lot of reserve on the flare. On one occasion I was way too late with flaring (I thought) but the Sabre2 leveled out immediately, I was dragging my feet through the grass and the flare lifted me up and put me back on my feet.
It probably looked cool, but I wasn't too pleased with myself for letting myself be surprised like that... The descent and forward speed is faster than I was used to with the student canopies.

I have my brakes at factory settings. Every time I forget to look if the lines are too long or not: having too much fun flying ;)

[DanG 1]

If you are having trouble with the flare timing, inducing extra speed into your landing is not the solution. In fact, it will hinder your canopy progression in the long term (IMO). It is also dangerous, especially for someone will very little canopy experience.

Master straight-in approaches before adding any speed inducing manuvers (fronts risers in your case).

I have only jumped a Sabre2 a couple of times, but found that it had a very powerful flare. Inducing speed is not needed to land this canopy well. It has better flare and a flatter glide than a Spectre, but not so much as a Stiletto. The Sabre2 is a great all around canopy. Keep working on your straight-in approaches, and you will be rewarded.

- Dan G