Stealth 0 #1 October 1, 2003 Now I jump on Hornet 135 at 1.15:1 WL and I bored with it .I like it flies only in no wind or downwind. I'm going to downsize to 120 . I want to learn swoop Should I go for elliptical for better performance? Or semi-elliptical will be good choice for learning swoop at 1.3:1 WL ? I know it more pilot skill than canopy feature but anyway..... Sabre2, safire 1 or 2 ? or maybe Stiletto? or something else ? (not feel myself ready for Xfires) AFAIK elliptical just give me faster turns... am I right ? or it really have a lot more performance ? I think it is more easy to swoop on canopy with longer recovery arc ? If canopy have longer recovery arc does it have less glide in straight flight? (amount of horizontal movement per 1 meter altitude loss) I want to know more about most popular canopies useful for swoop not from their manufacturers but from pilots. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gus 1 #2 October 1, 2003 If you don't mind the occasional funky opening the Sabre2 is a good choice. I'm only a fledgling swooper (on a Sabre2 120 at 1.5:1) but when I get it right it can swoop quite nicely, the flare feels really good and seems to go on for ages. I was chatting to one of the instructors at my home dz who has a Sabre2 and a Stiletto and he prefers his Sabre2 and feels he gets better swoops from it. GusOutpatientsOnline.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TattooedMoFo 0 #3 October 1, 2003 QuoteNow I jump on Hornet 135 at 1.15:1 WL and I bored with it .I like it flies only in no wind or downwind. I'm going to downsize to 120 . I want to learn swoop Should I go for elliptical for better performance? Or semi-elliptical will be good choice for learning swoop at 1.3:1 WL ? I know it more pilot skill than canopy feature but anyway..... Sabre2, safire 1 or 2 ? or maybe Stiletto? or something else ? (not feel myself ready for Xfires) AFAIK elliptical just give me faster turns... am I right ? or it really have a lot more performance ? I think it is more easy to swoop on canopy with longer recovery arc ? If canopy have longer recovery arc does it have less glide in straight flight? (amount of horizontal movement per 1 meter altitude loss) I want to know more about most popular canopies useful for swoop not from their manufacturers but from pilots. I transitioned from a Hornet 135 Loaded at I think it was about 1.6:1( more or less) to a xfire2 129 and I found the transition wasn't a problem at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #4 October 1, 2003 You should'nt need to downsize or switch from your already semielliptical canopy to another one to swoop. I've swooped a Hornet 170 at 1.1:1 for 50 feet toe drags and it could have gone further if I did more then a 90 approach. Before you downsize are you able to max out every bit of proformance out of your existing canopy? Can you.... Throw a 90 carve? 180? 270? 360? And more importantly... are they consistant in coming around the corner at the right height? On the right heading? And are you landing exactly where you want to at the end of each swoop? If some one throws out a hula hoop can you make a high speed approach and land in it? Have you started carving the landings? Learning it on a faster canopy increases the risk factor. Can you pop up and over obsticles in your swoop? I'm starting to do canopy hops all the time where I swoop up and over othere peoples canopies as they are laying on the ground after they land. If you can't do that there is a lot of the canopy you are not using. Have you started swooping on rear risers yet? If not there is another 25-50 feet of distance you can get every jump. If you can'nt do the things in that short list then if you downsize your not maximizing your current canopy and you need to work on those things to increase your skills before downsizing. That Hornet with a skilled pilot will outswoop a lot of Stiletto pilots at a higher loading but less skilled.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TB99 0 #5 October 1, 2003 QuoteI want to learn swoop Dude ... he obviously hasn't done all that stuff, he wants to learn how to swoop I agree with you though, Phree ... I think you (Stealth) SHOULD learn how to do all that swooping on the current canopy ... you won't be bored of it anymore! Trailer 11/12 was the best. Thanks for the memories ... you guys rocked! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMFin 0 #6 October 1, 2003 Quote Throw a 90 carve? 180? 270? 360? Im sorry but I would really like to see when someone carves 360 or even a 180 with a canopy loaded 1.1:1 That I could call skill.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #7 October 1, 2003 I think he means the approach - not ground carving Hell I haven't seen anyone do a 360 carve on the ground. Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #8 October 1, 2003 >Hell I haven't seen anyone do a 360 carve on the ground. Look for some old video of people doing "Circles of Death" Most were carving more then 180 around and approaching 270 or more. Not all of them were stand up landings but this was on Sabre's and Stilettos years ago. I was shown some video of one that was done about 1995ish. Chuck Blue can probally give more accurate stories then what I could since I only heard from my JM at the time what was going on in those videos. And yes, I was talking about the approach to the swoop being a 360.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeedToJump 0 #9 October 1, 2003 QuoteLook for some old video of people doing "Circles of Death" Do you know we can find these videos? Are there any on ftp.skydivingmovies.com? I checked the public/landing and didn't see any there.Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #10 October 1, 2003 No idea... the stuff that was shown to me was old VHS. I'd ask around your DZ with some of the jumpers that have been around for a while.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #11 October 1, 2003 I don't know why that's so hard to believe. My silhouette 210 at 1.1:1 was a swoop machine. I really only got one or two 180 approaches on it, but I had no problems whatsoever. On a 90 or 120, ya had to go slowly through the carve because it took quite a while for the riser pressure to build up. On that, I could get about 80ft of surf pretty easily on a no- or light-wind day. Up high, I could do front riser 270s and 360s all day long. Riser pressure was actually a bit lighter than on my Samurai 150. flare when yer scared mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #12 October 1, 2003 Talk to Jack. I heard they used to do them all the time under excalibers. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #13 October 1, 2003 QuoteQuote Throw a 90 carve? 180? 270? 360? Im sorry but I would really like to see when someone carves 360 or even a 180 with a canopy loaded 1.1:1 That I could call skill.. edit to say i didnt read the post i was replying to fully Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMFin 0 #14 October 2, 2003 QuoteI don't know why that's so hard to believe. As it was already pointed out, I was talking about ground carving.. Just a misunderstanding... QuoteMy silhouette 210 at 1.1:1 was a swoop machine.... Yeah , yeah.. We belive you.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stealth 0 #15 October 2, 2003 Thank you for advices but I didn't ask to help me make decision to downsize or not. I need pilots opinion about different canopies characteristic How does long or short recovery arc affect swoop ability and glide ability ? How does tapered edges affect canopy performance ? I'll be satisfied even with any link to information Thank you ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #16 October 2, 2003 Its really all about pilot skill. I've seen pilots that can fly Sabres around people jumping stuff like Crossfires since they have more skill. A good pilot makes the canopy that he is flying fly to its maximum. A lot of a canopy is pilot prefrence. Some like really long recovery arc's others like short ones. Some like fast turning canopies, others are happier on slower turners. Too much taper on the leading edge can result in canopies that are prone to spinning. The Crossbraced canopies out there are more semi-elliptical then they are elliptical almost. Safe swoops....Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stealth 0 #17 October 2, 2003 Quote Too much taper on the leading edge can result in canopies that are prone to spinning. Wow ! This kind of information is really what I'm looking for ! Thanx ! Can you explain me pros and cons long or short recovery arc ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #18 October 2, 2003 QuoteCan you explain me pros and cons long or short recovery arc ? Okay here's my take on the matter. Pro for a short recovery arc: The pilot will likely not be in the corner very long if at all. Con for a short recovery arc: The carving turns must be made lower to the ground. Pro for a long recovery arc: The pilot can initiate their diving turn from a higher altitude and can build up plenty of speed but still have an out. Con for a long recovery arc: The pilot really needs to know their canopy's characteristics to avoid being the corner as the odds of being in the corner increase with a longer recovery arc. If I am wrong, I'm sure somebody will say so. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #19 October 2, 2003 Well I'm sure a lot of this is a matter of opinion, but here goes: Pros for short recovery arc: I can't see any. Cons for a short recovery arc: A few feet is the difference between being DEEP in the corner and simply a little in the corner. There is less time to identify and correct a low turn. There is also less speed to correct the low turn = less flaring power. Pros for long arc: Significant amount of time to identify being in the corner. If you're in the corner at a reasonable altitude, you've LONG since completed the turn and have a level wing. More flaring power to recover from a low turn. Cons for a long arc: Turn it at the same altitude as a short arc canopy and you're in deep poo poo if you don't get on those toggles (Should also be questioning your canopy if you do this). More speed to impact the ground with There are probably a ton more reasons one way or the other and I'm too lazy to type them all Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stealth 0 #20 October 6, 2003 I'm sorry but english is not my primary language, can you explain me please "being in corner" ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #21 October 6, 2003 Read this: http://www.bigairsportz.com/basoman.pdf (Requires Adobe Acrobat) and it will explain a lot about swooping to you.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #22 October 6, 2003 Being "in the corner" is used to describe when you do a turn too low. What too low is depends on the canopy of course. So a little in the corner would mean having to apply slightly more flare than you'd want to level the canopy out. The deeper in the corner, the harder you have to flare to save yourself. Hope this helps. Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #23 November 14, 2003 I agree, that would really be skill. I have a Hornet 190 loaded @ 1.1 and I can do chin ups on the fronts and it still dosen't do much. Guess that's why I going to a [email protected] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sammer 0 #24 November 20, 2003 I didn't want to hijack this thread, but since it seems to have died now anyway.... You touched upon a couple of things that I have really been wondering about. QuoteI've swooped a Hornet 170 at 1.1:1 for 50 feet toe drags and it could have gone further if I did more then a 90 approach. I load my Hornet 190 at ~1.3 and have never been able to really get the thing to turn with the front risers. When I attempt a front riser approach I always end up finishing the turn with the toggles and using double front to finish. Shifting my weight seems to have a greater impact than pulling the front riser all the way down. I have been told that this is because it is a Hornet and because it is so big. I accepted that explanation because it was given to me by a very experienced canopy pilot. Now after reading your post I am wondering if it is just me? Does anyone else have this problem? QuoteHave you started swooping on rear risers yet? If not there is another 25-50 feet of distance you can get every jump. This is something I have always wanted to try. No one at my DZ uses the back risers. I asked about it and was told that the only time you should do this is if you lose a brake line. Is there any reason I should not try landing with the rears? I hope no one gets too fired up over me asking these questions. I'm not wanting anyone to teach me how to swoop over the internet. I'm just a little bored and it seems like I should be trying to learn new stuff. -Sam Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #25 November 20, 2003 QuoteIs there any reason I should not try landing with the rears? Rear risers are one of the last steps in swooping. They're really unforgiving (easy to get wrong and stall the canopy) and are only recommended after many many practice attempts up high. Also I'd recommend working every bit out the canopy (smoothest, slowest possible flare) before going to this technique. Once you got all that down, I'd start moving to them. Remember, just because you may not be landing with them right now, doesn't mean you can't start practicing way up high. Part of that practicing is learning what it feels like to do a rear riser stall at high speed. Hope this helps. Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
