jumper03 0 #1 July 22, 2003 Another question in my quest for knowledge from experience before I try it myself.... I've practiced flaring at altitude but I've never held the canopy in full brakes for more than say 5-8 secs, 10 secs max. What happens if you put it into full brakes and hold it there? Will it start back sliding? Can you collapse the canopy completely? For reference, I've been jumping a Navigator 260 lately. As with everything I assume the canopy sq ftage has something to do with it too.... Thanks, JumpScars remind us that the past is real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeedToJump 0 #2 July 22, 2003 QuoteWhat happens if you put it into full brakes and hold it there? If you just put the canopy in deep/full brakes and hold it there you'll feel the speed decrease (like a flare) and then the canopy will just fly like that (decreased forward and vertical speed.) When you release the brakes it will dive forward as it builds up the vertical and horizontal speed again to recover to full flight. QuoteWill it start back sliding? The airspeed of the canopy will never (I believe) be negative so relative to the air you will never "backslide." Depending on the head winds thought, you may start flying backwards relative to the ground. QuoteCan you collapse the canopy completely? By just holding it in brakes - no. If you are in full brakes and then pull them down farther you will stall the canopy. The canopy is also much less stable when it is being flown in deep brakes. QuoteAnother question in my quest for knowledge from experience before I try it myself Don't rely on information you gather over the internet before trying it yourself. Talk to coaches/experienced pilots at your dropzone to verify any information you get before trying things. These people know how you fly and can see you from the ground to let you know what to do.Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMFin 0 #3 July 22, 2003 QuoteWhat happens if you put it into full brakes and hold it there? Will it start back sliding? If you fly in brakes, the canopy will not start "back sliding" QuoteCan you collapse the canopy completely I dont know what do you mean by collapsing completely.. but I believe Navigator´s brakes are set a bit longer so its not so easy to stall. But sure you can stall it if you wrap some of the line around your hands, but I do not suggest you do that. Dont be afraid to fly the canopy. Go out there and try what it can do. That way you will learn... Just remember to do it high enough. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gus 1 #4 July 22, 2003 QuoteWhat happens if you put it into full brakes and hold it there? It depends on the canopy and the length of the brake lines. My Sabre2 takes about 6 or 7 seconds before it starts to stall and 'get funky'. AFAIK student canopies are often set up so they cannot be stalled, no matter how long you flare for and that may be the case with your Navigator. QuoteWill it start back sliding? Contrary to the other replies, I thought that you could 'reverse' a canopy (some canopies at least) for a short while before it stalls. Isn't this a technique in BASE for avoiding object strikes? QuoteCan you collapse the canopy completely? Again, contrary to other replies I thought that if you hold your brakes past the stall point your canopy cannot maintain presurisation and will therefore collapse. I've never tried it for more than a few seconds but some dutch jumpers I met told me it was part of their license test to hold a stall for 10 seconds. As always you should ask your instructors before trying these things but I'd recommend doing them (up high of course) - learning the characteristics of your canopy can only be a good thing. GusOutpatientsOnline.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeedToJump 0 #5 July 22, 2003 QuoteAgain, contrary to other replies I thought that if you hold your brakes past the stall point your canopy cannot maintain presurisation and will therefore collapse. Holding the brakes past the stall point is not flying in deep/full brakes, that is stalling the canopy. Flying in full brakes is holding your brakes down to just before the stall point - flattening the glide as much as possible without stalling. That is why the canopy gets funky, because it is so close to the stall point. Flying in brakes, flaring and stalling are three different things. QuoteContrary to the other replies, I thought that you could 'reverse' a canopy (some canopies at least) for a short while before it stalls. Isn't this a technique in BASE for avoiding object strikes? I know nothing about BASE jumping so I cannot comment on that, but as far as I know, just by flying the canopy in brakes it will still fly forward it will just have a very flat glide. Once you pull the brakes past the stall point, the canopy will collapse backwards (the end cells will go back and touch each other.) I guess for the second when the end cells go back before the canopy has collapsed you are flying backwards. Hopefully SkyMonkeyOne or one of the other highly experienced canopy fliers will chip in and clarify a few things for all of us.Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #6 July 22, 2003 Ummm, so when I go into a dynamic stall and that pilot chute starts flying in front of the nose, I am not going backwards to the relative wind? Actually, yes, you can go backwards on toggles. I find it easier to go backwards on rears, but toggles can work to get there too, just before it bowties and the endcells kiss. After that, you've got a round above your head and you're coming pretty much straight down to the relative wind. (On most canopies, especially if your arms are short, you might need to take a wrap of brake line in addition to the toggle, since the dynamic stall point on most canopies--especially big student rigs is beyond arm stretch.) On rears, unless your canopy is airlocked, the top skin will fall down onto the bottom skin the further into the stall you get. That's about the same time the pilot chute and dbag will start working their way onto the top of the canopy. A little more pressure on the rears and the pc should disappear on top of the canopy and eventually work it's way to the front of the canopy. You'll be flying backwards and you can maintain that for quite some time. At a point shortly thereafter with a slight bit more pressure, the canopy will drop behind you. IT IS IMPERATIVE THAT YOU RELEASE THE RISERS (OR THE TOGGLES ESPECIALLY IN A DYNAMIC STALL) SLOWLY AND EVENLY!!!!! DO NOT GET SCARED AND RELEASE THEM QUICKLY OR UNEVENLY!!!! BAD JUJU! You'll spin (most likely spin up). I completely agree that one should talk to a canopy coach, preferably in a canopy control course to learn more about not only stalls, but canopy flight in general. It could be the information that saves your life. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gus 1 #7 July 22, 2003 QuoteHolding the brakes past the stall point is not flying in deep/full brakes Ok, we're talking about slightly different things then. GusOutpatientsOnline.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtval 0 #8 July 22, 2003 heres my experience with my 210 and 170 sabre's when I got the 170 (recently) I did a clear and pull form 10000k. I TRIED WITH ALL I HAD to collapse it. I held the brakes all the way down I even took a two wraps on the brakes. didnt stall or collapse! I've even done "the dance" as I call it. Full left toggle to full right toggle repeatedly! NOTICE THIS WAS DONE AT FULL ALTITUDE! as I started lossing altitude form normal; flight I grabbed hold of each riser and pulled as hard as I could! (still high enuogh to cut way if needed) then I tried pulling the left front and right back risers to see how the thing would fly! I reversed grips and watched again as I flew. then I pulled on both fronts and both rears! etc.... my main objective of this first jump is to find the points where the the main had the Best response. I also wanted to see if the thing would spin up ( a 170 is still kinda big) anyway with a 260 I dont think youd have so much speed built up but these are things you should talk to your instructor about! I went up high and tried to ssee if "that" main (170sabre) would get unstable if I made a faster turn down low. by pulled and jerking those toggles and risers I gave it a WAY exaggerated input. I would suggest you get to know how your canopy works while youre up high. of course if youre on rental gear you may not get the same rig all the time! but if you ask your instrocutors they will give you more guidance of the types of thing you should look forMy photos My Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumper03 0 #9 July 22, 2003 Quote of course if youre on rental gear you may not get the same rig all the time! but if you ask your instrocutors they will give you more guidance of the types of thing you should look for Aye, there's the rub. I'm still on rental gear and I don't think I've jumped the same canopy more than 3 times max since I started jumping so as soon as I get used to a canopy, I get stuck with a different canopy - so it's either take what's there or wait 2 more hours for the one I used before since the DZ I'm at now only rents by the jump. I just counted in my log book - I've jumped 12 different rigs in 39 jumps, none more than 5 times. I can't wait to try some braked turns friday but I think it's time to call Ralph. Thanks for all the data points. JumpScars remind us that the past is real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #10 July 22, 2003 Static, Dynamic and Accelerated Stallsquade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumper03 0 #11 July 22, 2003 QuoteStatic, Dynamic and Accelerated Stalls aha, Thanks Quade. Guess I need to snoop around this site some more Scars remind us that the past is real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #12 July 22, 2003 Yes, you can totally collapse your canopy by holding your toggles fully down for an extended period. Most student canopies, like your Navigator, are desensitized and will not abruptly drop off. Our navs require that you take several wraps to get them to collapse, but yes, you can do it if you try hard enough. Back in the eighties, we used to all do this on purpose, just to get whipped around. Hold it long enough and your slider goes back up your lines. Not a smart thing to do under your decision altitude, but not unsafe under a "square" parachute. Letting up on your toggles abruptly will cause your canopy to dive in front of you as it reinflates, sometimes creating slack in your lines. I would never consider any of this under an Elliptical canopy, especially a very small one. To see some nice video of what we used to do for fun, dig up an old Wally Gubbins video. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #13 July 22, 2003 QuoteTo see some nice video of what we used to do for fun, dig up an old Wally Gubbins video You spray painting an old F111 canopy isn't on one of those, is it?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #14 July 22, 2003 Actually, that was vinyl top paint! Still, it was a very Derek-esqe experiment that I am quite proud of. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeedToJump 0 #15 July 22, 2003 I agree, I think we are all talking about slightly different things here. The way that I think of full brakes is the point just before the stall point of the canopy. Therefore, by my definition of full brakes, you can't stall/collapse the canopy. Holding the toggles all the way down (on my canopy) will definitely cause it to collapse and would not be a smart thing to do on a fully elliptical canopy. Rear riser stalls since they are much more docile are fine to do. When I used to fly a Sabre (and when I've borrowed other people's canopies) I've played around with stalling them from brakes where the end cells touch before the canopy collapses behind you. It's a lot of fun to do this and then let up abruptly on the toggles which, as SkyMonkeyOne stated, causes the canopy to dive forward. Now that I jump a Stiletto I will NOT try this, but know what it feels like right before this happens so I can fly in deep brakes without my canopy stalling and collapsing. I hope I have cleared up my way of thinking about these terms.Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #16 July 25, 2003 I would never consider any of this under an Elliptical canopy, especially a very small one. Chuck So "helicoptering" a moderately loaded cobalt is a deff No~no? I've seen it done by sabre1 flyers and it looks cool. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
