Faster vs. more flare power

[grega 0]

Which canopy would you choose, considering you'd have it for swooping competition (speed, distance, accuracy, ...)?
And why?

1. The one that has a longer recovery arc, dives faster (steeper), flies faster, gains a lot of speed in a turn and has a flare for lets say around 3.8 seconds?

2. Or the one that has a shorter recovery arc, dives slower, glides better, flies slower, and doesn't gain that much speed in a turn, but flares for about 5 seconds.

"George just lucky i guess!"

[Canuck 0]

huh?

Canuck

[andy2 0]

I thought flare power depended upon canopy speed/wind speed? Am I wrong?

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[freeflydrew 0]

huh... huh?
I like the stilettto... for what it's worth!

[RichM 0]

What do you have in mind? Are there two canopies you would like an opinion on? My understanding is that Xaos and Velocity are the current swoop kings taking most of the places on the PST Tour. If you want to know swoop characteristics find out about these canopies.

Rich M

[Jimbo 0]

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I thought flare power depended upon canopy speed/wind speed? Am I wrong?

It depends mostly, I think, on air speed. Air speed is different from wind speed or ground speed. If you search the forums you'll find plenty of explanations. Happy reading.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[grega 0]

it sure does, on the same canopy.
if you have a canopy that has a flare for 3 seconds with straight in approach, it will definitely have more flare if you do a 270 front riser turn...

but i was comparing two different canopies...
well if you must know i'm comparing:

Atair cobalt competition
Atair impulse (alpha,space,viper or whatever the name is)

and what i felt/noticed, when i tried them both, is that cobalt competition has less flare power but is waaaaay faster than Impulse that has much powerful flare but it's a lot slower then cobalt comp.
And cobalt competition has much longer recovery arc than impulse, and of course gains more speed in a turn.

Both canopies were 120 sq. feet

So which one would you choose for swooping?

"George just lucky i guess!"

[grega 0]

oh and wind speed doesn't affect your flare power.
it's exactly the same. your canopies performances (flare power, air speed, recovery arc,...) are exactly the same whether there is 20 mph wind or 0 mph. but the air is much more turbulent at 20mph wind so the canopy can react a "little differently" when flying in turbulent air...

The wind does affect your ground speed and the distance of the swoop though.

"George just lucky i guess!"

[Canuck 0]

OK...how to put this politely. Your profile says 330 jumps. This post gives a fairly clear indication that you haven't taken the time to fully learn about canopy flight (both in theory and practice). You my friend, are in the danger zone...

What you say in your original post fundamentally contradicts. The canopy that dives harder and flies faster will indeed flare longer. Think about it, it has to in order to bleed off the speed and stop. And where are you getting these times from. How can you say the comp cobalt flares for 3.8 seconds, and the impulse flares for 5 seconds? Is that based on a straight in approach? A 90? A 270? Are you talking about a nice smooth controlled falre, or a toggle stab. Are you saying that no matter how you land the comp cobalt, that after 3.5 seconds it no longer flares? Then what?...

Then you say that a canopy's airspeed and recovery arc are not affected by wind speed. Wrong. Any experienced swooper will tell you that a canopy stays in the corner longer on a windy day (landing into the wind that is). Many broken legs have proven that mistake.

Take a giant step back. Canopies don't swoop, good pilots swoop. Talk to some mentors, read, watch video, do whatever it takes to educate yourself. It just might save you a femur.

Canuck

[raymod2 1]

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Then you say that a canopy's airspeed and recovery arc are not affected by wind speed. Wrong. Any experienced swooper will tell you that a canopy stays in the corner longer on a windy day (landing into the wind that is).

I am not refuting the veracity of this statement but would you care to elaborate why?

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Then you say that a canopy's airspeed and recovery arc are not affected by wind speed. Wrong. Any experienced swooper will tell you that a canopy stays in the corner longer on a windy day

Scott Miller discussed this very thing in his canopy course. It's an illusion, just think about relative wind, the ground you cover and the speed you cover it at. If you doubt it feel free to attend his class and ask him to explain why.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[ianmdrennan 2]

Grega,

Just something to think about...My buddies and I were recently measuring the distance we were covering and speed we were doing it at (one on a velocity 84 loaded @ 2.2, another on a xaos 120 @ 2.0 and myself under a velocity 96 @ 2.1). One thing we noticed that while our distances were very similar, the 84 covered it a lot quicker than I, while the 120 took significantly longer than both of us. Just something to think about when comparing "flare times" in seconds. Things are not always as they appear.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[johnny1488 1]

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Things are not always as they appear.

The way scott talked about it, you never notice it up top, were the wind is even stronger. He said the reason you think it is in the corner longer is because you are diving over the same piece of land for a longer period of time, not covering ground like on a no wind day. His qoute was windspeed does nothing to canopy flight except change your ground speed. Now with turbulent air, all bets are off. This is only what I was told. I dont have too much expierence being in a dive close to the ground in high winds. I prefer to do my practicing on low wind days.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[ianmdrennan 2]

Johnny,

Yep thats exactly it - as always we're assuming no turbulance. There are a lot of old myths out there that were put to rest on this course...this being one of them. Glad you took it, hope you got as much out of it as I did.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[grega 0]

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OK...how to put this politely. Your profile says 330 jumps. This post gives a fairly clear indication that you haven't taken the time to fully learn about canopy flight (both in theory and practice). You my friend, are in the danger zone...

Thanks for reminding me. And yes i am fully aware that i'm in danger cone. But about the time taken to fully learn the canopy flight i don't agree with you at all. Well of course 330 jumps is not nearly enough to learn everything in practice, but at least i did my homework in theory and learned everything i could find or have heard, and am still learning. About practice and experience i'm at the beginning of almost everything and i know that.

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What you say in your original post fundamentally contradicts. The canopy that dives harder and flies faster will indeed flare longer. Think about it, it has to in order to bleed off the speed and stop. And where are you getting these times from. How can you say the comp cobalt flares for 3.8 seconds, and the impulse flares for 5 seconds? Is that based on a straight in approach? A 90? A 270? Are you talking about a nice smooth controlled falre, or a toggle stab. Are you saying that no matter how you land the comp cobalt, that after 3.5 seconds it no longer flares? Then what?...

That times 3.8 and 5 seconds are made up just for comparison. I didn't measure the time i was actually flaring, i just sensed that i can keep impulse longer in flare than cobalt comp, friends who were watching me land noticed the same, though i covered more distance with Cobalt comp. And all approaches were straight in with "nice smooth controlled flare". because it's easier to do "exactly the same" straight in approach twice in a row, than exactly the same 90, 180 or 270 turn, at least with my knowledge and experiences. and i don't do 180 or 270 yet. actually i even stopped doing 90 and took a step back.
And about flare power, again those are different canopies with different characteristics. if you watch carefully different canopies on landing you can notice the difference. some canopies almost stop at the end while others are still having some speed. so why is that. weren't all canopies suppose to bleed of the speed and stop. well in perfect world yes, but the truth is that some canopies are designed for more conservative pilots that "almost stop" at the end, while others are designed to swoop and have a lot of speed to cover a lot of ground in flare, but unfortunately they don't have the flare power to "stop" the canopy, so you have to run at the end.
And what happens after 3.5 seconds?

hmm is that some sort of candid camera
Well,... hmm,... if you pull the toggles below your stall point, when canopy looses air speed, that it needs to fly, it stalls. Unless i wouldn't go pass that point, then when it would lost the speed do maintain height, it would start gaining vertical speed again, and the landing would be rough. so you have to be 5 inches off the ground bleeding you speed off, and when you feel the canopy is loosing flare power, you gradually start running or slide over the ground. and you have a "gentle" landing. If the canopy is designed to almost stop at the end, then you just step down
Oh and about the flare power. The competition cobalt does have a little less flare power than impulse. and that didn't came from me. the words are from much more reliable source.

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Then you say that a canopy's airspeed and recovery arc are not affected by wind speed. Wrong. Any experienced swooper will tell you that a canopy stays in the corner longer on a windy day (landing into the wind that is). Many broken legs have proven that mistake.

i think others answered that

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Take a giant step back. Canopies don't swoop, good pilots swoop. Talk to some mentors, read, watch video, do whatever it takes to educate yourself. It just might save you a femur.

Thanks again for concern, and don't worry i did a giant step back. Well at least in flying if not in canopy size.

"George just lucky i guess!"

[grega 0]

Huh, votes are almost the same.

How is cobalt competition at swooping competitions comparing to crossfires, stilletos,.. and other non crossbraced canopies. Is it better, or do the other non x-braced canopies swoop farther/faster? how about comparing it with x-braced canopies?

"George just lucky i guess!"

[Yoshi 0]

its all a matter of the pilot, and who you ask (ask the manufacturer and they will say thiers is the best)

that being said of the non crossbraced canopies the crossfire 2 is the best

-yoshi

_________________________________________
this space for rent.

[rhino 0]

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that being said of the non crossbraced canopies the crossfire 2 is the best

I second that

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[Tonto 1]

Grega - read this. It clears up a lot of shit and is old enough to know it works.

http://www.skydiveaz.com/resources/book_canopy.htm

The smaller faster canopy will only win in higher wind conditions.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[grega 0]

Tonto, thanks i read that "book" a couple of times already, and it really cleared up a lot of things i didn't know back then :)
I Just wanted to know what would others choose for swooping...

btw: i finaly did one landing with sloooow front riser turn (less than 90degrees) and it swooopps waay farther than canopy number 2 (impulse - slover with more flare)
it's almost like a CC120 doesn't like slow. it's built for speed

I like it more with every jump , but the openings can get rough if you're not paying attention when packing...

"George just lucky i guess!"