Jump number requirements for swooping?

[Steel 0]

Ok I am not going to say that experience is meaningless here because obviously people get better with experience. But I definitely know that it is unfair to judge somebody based strictly on their jump numbers. I know people with two times as many jumps as me who I can swoop faster, further, and more accurate than. Hell I know people with 2 times as many jumps who weigh less than me and could not stand up a landing on my canopy even with a 20 mile and hour headwind. The bottom line is people improve at different rates. And when skill levels are being judged a tremendous amount of politics and egoes are factored into skill assessment. For this reason believe any policy of this nature would be bad. But not for this reason alone. I have a strong belief in the need for personal freedom. For instance in Texas there is no helmet law for motorcycles and I commend this. I have a Ninga Zx-9 and you would never catch me out riding without my helmet but I am extremely opposed to any implimentation of a helmet law for Texas. And I do know friends who have died because of riding without a helmet but still don't believe we should ever mess with personal freedom.
Blue Skies!
Psycho Bruno out

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

....330 jumps to be jumping at 1.64:1. I dont think a canopy manufacturer out there would even send a demo canopy to someone with that experience vs. wing loading ratio.

oh it pains me to say, but so untrue.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Ron 7]

Yes I agree,

And
Yes, I can't spell...

Oh well.

Opps

Sorry...

Ok Im over it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Brianflian 0]

Listo,

You obviously have some great concern for the safety of canopy pilots. I commend you for that.

I suggest that instead of trying to create more bureaucracy, more licenses, more restrictions on freedom, etc., that you make the world a better place by educating the people who concern you.

Regulations, ratings, restrictions, etc. are not a substitute for good education. For example, as soon as USPA came out with a coach rating, many people went out and got the rating. Many of them have no idea how to fly their bodies, so how can they coach?

There are canopy shools available now. Here's a free market approach for you. Create demand for those schools. Get your friends together and take a trip to a school. Tell everyone how great it was, how much you learned, how much they will benefit from doing it.

When the schools start doing more business, more schools will open up. More HP coaches will be available. Education will breed education. Piloting a canopy safely will become a matter of choosing to learn it, rather than doing it and hoping for the best.

If there were regulations, how could they be enforced? It is easy to borrow gear. It is easy for a 120 pound person to make a low turn on a 280 SF F11 canopy and get hurt. Without an effective way to enforce your regulations, people will take the easy way out.

And for all who have posted before, JUDGMENT, not judgement. Sure you can find judgement in the dictionary, but it is only there because people can't spell. Judgment is proper. And if you run the spell checker include with Dropzone.com forums, it will catch you on this one.

Brian

[Treejumps 0]

This steel guy sounds like this idiot (moron) from SD Dallas I'll just metaphorically refer to as Bruno. He is the poster child for why people should use birth control, and for why young canopy pilots should listen to those with more experience. Bruno had maybe 100 jumps when he started trying to buy a crossbrace canopy. Unlike now, canopy manufacturerers a few years ago tried to keep Darwin at bay by not selling the Brunos of the world canopys they have no business trying to fly. Bruno still walks with a limp from his many burn ins. THere was a reason why virtually every single experienced HP pilot on the DZ, including absolute top level folks like TJ, told this Bruno to slow down. He didn't listen. He would only Hop and pop for a several hundred jumps because if there was anyone else in the sky that he had to manuever around he would surely die. At least he was scared enough to only try these hijinks when he had the sky to himself. Bruno didn't hook before he got his cross brace, and then was afraid to even touch his toggles other than to flare. He was quite entertaining though when he would come screaming in, just holding on for dear life, stall out and slide in. Time after time after time. So what did he do then? Got a smaller canopy so he could tell ever single person he met that he was at 3.1. Even when presented with articles by Jim Slaton saying that flying at 3.1 made no sense since it is outside of the canopy's performance envelope, Bruno would just shrug it off and say that they way HE did things made it OK. In his first attempt to show the world what he knew he pretty much hooked it in at a PPB meet. Now don't ever try to tell Bruno anything. He knows eveything there is to know about canopy flight, and what he dosent' know he makes up. It doesn't matter to Bruno. He lives in his own world where rational though, common sense, and wisdom simply do not exist. Admittedly, Bruno is the absolute worst example of the 100 jump wonder "Know It All" who won't take advice. But many people are on the continum at lower levels. Yes, some people advance faster than others, but too many people think they advance faster but don't, and they have just been lucky so far. If one person is telling you stuff you don't want to hear, maybe they are just a dick. But if everyone is telling you the same thing you can be sure who then who is the dick.

Don't be a dick,

Tree

[johnny1488 1]

We dont need any more regulation, we need training. Not in swooping but in emergency controls like braked turns and approaches. Yeah I know its in the new student program but not everyone absorbs the urgency of learning these skills. I dont think addition of formal training is the answer. Make students understand why these skills are important. I've always said that once a student has an A license they are responsible for themselves. If it means keeping an a license away from them longer than do it. After that they should have the knowledge to make informed decisions on how to fly, when to jump, ect. If you see a newbie doing something dangerous than by all means stop them but dont but regulations in place to limit our sport. Perhaps we need someone to wipe our asses also. Or tell us when its safe to jump in winds based on jump numbers, licenses, or some other pre-determined factor. Nothing will be absolute in all circumstances. Its the same old argument like " if no one was allowed to jump over 1:1 there would be fewer injuries". There would be fewer injuries if we didnt jump at all. When I started jumping I was compelled to learn all I could about every aspect of the sport and all aspects of the devices that were saving my life. Personally I dont know why it's not the same for everyone. I will relinquish the soapbox now. Regulation is not the answer.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[crazy 0]

Quote

I think that who ever said that basic aerodynamics should be a required knowledge is right on the money.

On the same level as basic aerodynamics, i would put:
- basic canopy manufacturing (lots of limitations of our canopies come from the way they are built)
- advanced meditation training: keep a cool mind to do the right thing at the right time
- martial arts or gymnastics: improved reflexes and better falling techniques
- advanced stretching: a flexible body absorbs the impact more smoothly
- dietetics: diets with lots of calcium strenghten the bones
- enough blood credits
- ...

Quote

........and to recap, THIS IS CONCERNING SWOOPING ONLY. Not just people who want to downsize. PLEASE DONT CONFUSE THE TWO! I know a lot of people that fly at 1.3-1.6 that don't do hooks or carves at all. I am referring to the people who are doing hook turns and carves.

To avoid confusion, i checked the 33 fatalities in the US for the year 2001. there are 9 (27%) fatalities related to landing perfectly good canopies. 5 of them (56%) from apparently very experienced skydivers who hooked in or didn't flare for some reason. 4 of them (44%) are beginners to intermediate skydivers (1, 40, 80 and 210 jumps) who died because of a poor choice in the landing area and landing pattern (avoiding - or not - obstacles or turning into the wind).
This raises some questions:
- do you still think that if you don't plan to hook you won't die? The 4 last were probably thinking the same.
- for the year 2001 in the US, where are the fatalities involving intermediate (200-500 jumps) skydivers who hooked in because they were trying to swoop? (they are the rationale for the regulation that you suggest, right?)
- If you ask some regulation for the < 500 jumps who do hook turns and carves, shouldn't you ask some regulation for the very experienced skydivers as well (fatality #28 has 4700 jumps). They are a minority in the skydiving community and still represent the majority of fatalities related to landings, for the year 2001 in the US.

bb

--
Come
Skydive Asia

[listo 0]

ok.............first of all I am going to ask that if you are going to use the threads for personal attacks then keep your mouth for the dropzone. NOW.....if you care to read back a little you will see that what I have been talking about is that I would like to see some kind of training program set up for people who want to learn how to swoop safely and have some kind of reward for what they are doing. I personally would like to know that I am jumping with someone that has met an ACTUAL criteria or guideline for what they are jumping and trying to do with what they are jumping. I AM REFERRING TO PEOPLE WHO WANT TO SWOOP. I AM NOT TRYING TO IMPLEMENT SOMETHING THAT WOULD REGULATE DOWNSIZING.

I am going to suggest that this thread be locked ASAP because it seems to be bringing out the hot headed "I know it all's". I was merely putting a suggestion up for people to talk about. I DO NOT WANT TO START A THREAD FOR PEOPLE TO VOICE WHETHER OR NOT REGULATION SHOULD BE IMPLEMENTED FOR DOWNSIZING.

I am afraid that some low experience jumpers are going to read this and think that it is ok to just go out, buy a rocket ship and hook themselves in while trying to learn how to swoop. That is absolutely ludicrous!

I am pleading to all those people who are reading this and posting to think about who is reading it as a whole and who is going to take "what" from what you are saying.

We are in the "genesis" of HP canopy flight. Those of us who have learned, have a responsibility to teach those who are following us. We are the parents of HP flight and our "kids" are following by our examples.

Blue Skies,
Loooooooooooooong Swoops,
Sam

THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK.......YOU TEND TO NOT LOOK AS IGNORANT AT TIMES IF YOU DO

[listo 0]

OK PEOPLE........I HAVE ASKED THE MODERATOR TO REVIEW THIS THREAD. THE PERSONAL ATTACKS ARE NOT NEEDED.

I WOULD ASK THAT EACH OF YOU GO BACK AND READ THE WHOLE ENTIRE THREAD BEFORE YOU POST ANOTHER STATEMENT. PLEASE READ WHAT I AM SAYING AND TRY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING.

THIS IS NOT A THREAD FOR ARGUMENTS BY ANY MEANS.

IT IS A THREAD FOR WAYS TO IMPROVE THE SAFETY OF TRAINING FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT TO LEARN TO SWOOP

THE POSTS THAT I PERSONALLY HAVE ADDED TO THIS ARE NOTHING MORE THAN IDEAS........I AM LOOKING FOR SUGGESTIONS FROM REASONABLE PEOPLE THAT COULD BE USED TO MAKE THIS PART OF THE SPORT SAFER FOR THE NEWCOMERS.

NOT TO REGULATE.

LET ME MAKE THIS CLEARER.......SHOULD WE HAVE SOME KIND OF GUIDELINES FOR A BEGINNING SWOOPER (whether they have 200 or 2000 jumps total) TO HAVE TO MEET CERTAIN CRITERIA FOR SWOOPING AT A GIVEN WL BEFORE THEY ARE ALLOWED TO "SWOOP" SOMETHING SMALLER?

TAKE NOTE, I SAID SWOOP SOMETHING SMALLER, NOT JUMP SOMETHING SMALLER.

THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE. I MADE REFERENCE EARLIER TO MY DEFINITION OF A SWOOP VS. A NORMAL APPROACH.

OH YEAH, THE PERSONAL ATTACKS ARE NOT NEEDED AND ONLY SHOW IGNORANCE

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[headdown10 0]

wow some people jusy dont get it
swooping as in skydiving is as safe or as dangerous as you want to make it there fore it stands to reason that responsible progression will keep you alive i started to learn how to swoop at about 50 jumps under a manta 288 and i weigh 130lbs and every time i transitioned down i went back to basics i now have 750 jumps and am about to go down to a stiletto 97 from a stiletto 120 and yes i'll go back to basics.
also there is a difference between a hook and a carve have an experienced swooper explane the diff in mechanics a carve gives you more control and more options for outs
wake up and flare

SHUT UP & JUMP

[Ron 7]

Quote

And if you run the spell checker include with Dropzone.com forums, it will catch
you on this one.

Yes, but it can miss the D that needed to be there....

This is why I don't comment on peoples spelling...I suck at it, and as soon as I do...I screw something up.



Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Okay before evryone gets too hot and bothered about all this here are some links that provide guidance as opposed to regulation.....
http://www.skydiveaz.com/resources/book_intro.htm
http://www.afn.org/skydive/sta/highperf.pdf
http://www.afn.org/skydive/sta/cancontrol.html
http://www.afn.org/skydive/sta/flynland.html
http://www.afn.org/skydive/sta/landing.html
http://www.afn.org/skydive/sta/accc/

Read, learn, have fun, and survive, for god's sake don't wear a helmet, and remember the golden rule, safety third!

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I am tempted to just delete this entire thread due to some of the several WAY off base posts, but I will not. I am going to lock it though because it is not terribly educational in my opinion. There is plenty of guidance out there provided by the manufacturer. True, many, many people blow those "requirements" off just so they can "go faster and be cooler", but that is a systemic dropzone problem. I had a thousand jumps on a "square" before I ever jumped an Excallibur (then Sabre, then Stilleto), so I was covered. I also had a thousand jumps on those mains before I jumped a crossbrace (as recommended), so I am covered in that aspect as well. That being said, if a person can get some real coaching at about 500 jumps, he might have a better chance of not piling in due to his or her personal vanity. Yes, tiny rigs are cool to look at and wear, but they tiny mains and reserves that fit in them will hand you your ass if you don't respect them. You cannot gain that respect without experience. You cannot get that experience without jumping out of an airplane a LOT of times. Being friends with an experienced skydiver or swooper does not mean YOU are experienced. At the same time, don't get pissed because there are people who are younger than you, that have been jumping for much less time than you, yet have amassed the requisite jump numbers to get away with jumping heavily loaded mains. There are plenty of trust-fund kids running around big dropzones that make 1000 jumps a year. No, they are not infallible either, but what I am saying is that one probably ought to know all the facts before they march off and order that VX because "that kid has one."

The end.

Chuck

[PhreeZone 15]

Also refrence the owners manual at www.bigairsportz.com. Brian put lots of stuff in there that even a student should beable to learn from.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com