Siletto or safire

[blueskyphil 0]

I need some adviced...
What should I chose between a stiletto 135 or safire 1 129 to get better swoop.
I weigh 165 and I have about 400 jumps.
Thanks in advance
Philippe

[bobsoutar 0]

You will get a better swoop out of the Stilletto. Your profile is obviously not up to date but if you are still jumping a Triathlon 160, a Stilletto 135 is a very big step and a Safire 139 would probably be a better choice for you.

[PhreeZone 15]

The Safire is really about 119 square feet if you measure it out via PD's method. So the safire is one full size smaller then the Stiletto.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

The Stiletto will surf farther naturally, but an inexperienced pilot will pound himself under one. Also, as previously stated, that Safire is actually placarded larger than it really is.

Chuck

[freeflir29 0]

The Stiletto is definately a more High performance parachute. Mine continues to amaze me. It's HUGE by most people's standards. A 170....loaded about 1.28. Even as big as it is and relatively lightly loaded it still amazes me at just how fast it will go. Yet it's pretty docile when I fly it straight in. That loading is going to be zippy!!!

[Ron 7]

I say get the Stiletto....at a reasonable wingloading
The 135 should give you close to a 1.4 to 1.
I personally think that a 1.4 to 1 is perfect for a Stiletto. I put 600 jumps on one that was 1.41 to one and loved it. I could swoop almost as far as on my 107....same distance just slower. And land it in a lot tighter places.
I could 90 degree carve it, and land it in half brakes.

Great canopy....at a good wingloading.

I got mine at around 400 jumps...be carefull I also smacked myself into the ground at that wingloading on jump #3 on it.

It can Hurt/Kill you very well.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[psw097 0]

I guess I've been an engineer for too long. But, what parameters are you using to say one is more high performance than the other? Forward speed, turn rate, composite speed (sink + forward), aspect ratio, AOA, AOI? At equal wing loading similarly designed canopies will fly the same speed. Other design parameters effect your perceived performance but end up being personal preference.

Manufacturers hype aside I just don't see, or feel, these huge performance differences between similar planforms.

Jump what you like the best at an appropriate wingloading for your skill level and experience.

I jump a Viper 94 at ~2.1/1 (any more decimal places get lost in the turd I took this morning)

Webster

[freeflir29 0]

Quote

what parameters are you using to say one is more high performance than the other?

A Stiletto is a more eliptical design than the Safire. So.....you get faster turn rates and more speed during HP landings.

[Danger 0]

I have to disagree with this statement as I regularly outswoop Stilettos with my 109 Safire.

Danger

[PhreeZone 15]

If you figure your Safire is a 97 sq ft canopy (since its really about 100 feet) how would that put your wing loading compaired to the stiletto jumpers loadings?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[psw097 0]

I agree with the first statement - Stilettos do turn fast. The second statement is debatable - since there is no eliptical canopies, we will say that the Stiletto is more tapered than the Safire - true. But, the taper has nothing to do with forward speed. Forward speed is based on windloading and coefficient of drag. Airfoil shape, planform, manufacturing process, and line set determine CoD - not the taper.

Look, they are both nice wings. I just do not agree with how "high-performance" and "elliptical" are thrown around by the marketing department and faceless people sitting at a computer. Jump everything you can get your hands on and decide for yourself.

These conversations always remind me of the Alpha and the Space. The Alpha was a high-performance swooping machine. The Space - a nice all around canopy. They are the same thing with a different name on the wingtip. - marketing and hype.

Webster

[Danger 0]

I outswoop the Stiletto 97 with higher and lower wing loadings than myself.

I believe a large part of the swoop is the technique and flying skill of the pilot.

Danger

[bobsoutar 0]

Just my opinion but having jumped both I would say that with equal wing loadings the Stilletto will outswoop the Safire and be faster in the turns. This assumes the same person under each canopy.

More experienced swoopers like yourself will often outperform lesser experienced pilots under a potentially faster canopy.

[freeflyguy 0]

Might as well chime in

Depends on what you want.

I have put hundreds of jumps on a safire 139. Many many on a stilleto.

As far as swoop distance, I doubt you will really notice a big difference, in the real world. True a stilleto may go a bit farther, but that does have it's trade off.

A Safire will likely give you more predictable docile openings. Also, you won't have to worry about body position as much, on deployment, and under canopy, on the Safire. The Stilleto's are much more sensitive in those areas.

Yet, the Safire will still turn fast, float great and surf great. It will perform almost as well.

In all, they are both great, and you will likely get used to the character of both. But the Safire will likely inspire a bit more confidence, and not be as much of a step from a Tri.

Of course, they can both equally break body pieces, but that is mostly up to you.

I loved mine, and it was great stepping stone.

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bzzzz

[cobaltdan 0]

my experience with both canopies has been that a stilletto will definately outswoop a safire at equal loadings...but that would not be my deciding factor on a purchase as neither canopy is a contender for swoop competition. do you really care if one goes 30' further than the other? demo them both and choose the one that you take to best ! and demo others in the class as well...

my notes on the canopies are:
the stilletto is a fun wing but there are more efficient and polished designs available now, basically it is a classic and there are better choices.

safire i do not care for as at the wing loadings i like to fly i find the flight carateristics undesirable. i.e too short a control range and a tendency to bow tie in the slightest of stalls. this was my experience at 1.75 wing loading (i normally jump a cobalt at 2.2-2.4). i found the canopy very easy to bow tie in a swoop. i have since watched other high experienced and even sponsored jumpers at our home dz who jump safires bow tie their canopies coming out of the corner or in their swoop, quite often. i believe the canopy is better suited to wing loadings below 1.6.

there are people that love the safire, it is just my personal preference to go with a canopy with a deeper control range and no tendency to bowtie in a shallow stall.

simply demo all and make up your own mind.

sincerely,

dan<><>
www.extremefly.com

Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)

[skygod7777 0]

Quote

i believe the canopy is better suited to wing loadings below 1.6

dan

there is a very good reason for this. the safire is made for a person just off student statis. not for a person that wants load up a canopy at 2 to 1. and also, if you look on icarus's web sight the canopy is only designed to handle wing loadings of .75 to 1.6. So that would explain your bad landings

i personally think the safire isn't the greatest canopy in the world. but if your at a light wing loading, it is a decent canopy, but like dan said, there are better canopies out there now.

later

[blueskyphil 0]

I updated my profile i jump a safire 149 I have about 300 jumps on it.

Like you said there is better canopies, can you tell me what sould i go for to get better swooping for my experience and without breaking my self in parts.

Thanks for helping me everyone
Phil

[garywainwright 0]

I'd do another 200 - 300 on what you've got so you nail it everytime before getting something new.

http://www.garywainwright.co.uk

Instagram gary_wainwright_uk

[bobsoutar 0]

There is a French canopy called a Springo 140 which would probably be a good choice. It's worth test jumping a few before you decide though.

[PhreeZone 15]

PdF does not sell canopies in America.... Even demos are out unless you have some one willing to ship you one from Europe.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[skygod7777 0]

ok, usually i would agree with garywainwright on this subject, but i hate safire 1's. i really don't think there a good canopy at all.

so i would say go with a crossfire 1 of the same size if you can find one. i wouldn't recomend downsizing. but there are othere canopies out there too, the PISA hornet is a really good canopy. the sabre 2 is good. i haven't heard anything bad or good about the safire 2, so i couln't tell you anthing about it. but the PISA hornet i do know will cost you the least. and if your looking to downsize, it would be a really good canopy to go to. the openings are great, great flare, great glide. just a really good all around canopy.

but this is just my opinion
and opinions are like assholes...............everyone has em...........and the all stink!!

later

[Sonic 0]

Or the Heatwave for full elliptical.

-----------------------------------
It's like something out of that twilighty show about that zone

[Ron 7]

As for canopies. I have a few points:

1. Never buy before you fly. I know some companys tell you to buy it and they will refund your mony if you are not happy....I understand thereasons for this (not having the expense of a demo fleet) but I would not do it.

2. When you demo....start at the same size canopy you jump now. It is the only way to see how it compares to what you currently fly....Too many time people get a size smaller than they currently jump...Of course it is going to fly better...Its smaller. Jump the same size until you decide what brand/type of canopy you want....then if you plan on down sizing, demo jump that canopy at a smaller size.

3. Buy a canopy that is made in the same country you live in...Spingos bluetracks...ect might be great(and are!), but I have known people to have problems with support (lines, sliders ect) from across the pond.

4. NEVER BE THE FIRST KID ON THE BLOCK WITH THE NEW TOY!
I know several people that want the new stuff first.....All I am going to say is NOVA! Look around to see what other people jump, there is a reason that others jump them.

My thoughts

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Yoshi 0]

the heatwave is a stilletto with a different name on the side...

feel free to correct me if I am wrong but thats what I heard..
-yoshi

_________________________________________
this space for rent.

[freeflyguy 0]

Some of you guys sound like a bunch of Golfers.

'If you can't hit the ball well, buy a new Club!'

Cracks me up.

Phillipe,

If it opens good, flys basically good, have fun and learn on it. Buying a higher performance or more eliptical wing only decreases your margin of safety.

Check out this pick, that is a Safire 1 above my head. Loaded just a little heavier than you are. Sure, it may not be the best, fastest or longest swooper, but after you get good on that, you will rock on a canopy that IS better. Thats my experience.

j

J

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bzzzz