Learning to swoop

[PLFXpert 0]

I've noticed a few people who want to learn to swoop start off trying it at swooping levels. I thought I'd suggest people trying it up high first.

I am a long ways from swooping on final approach but I practice a lot up high. I'd really like to eventually kick some ass in a swoop competition but I'm smart enough to know I'm not skillfully or mentally ready for it yet.

I am fortunate to jump where a lot of swoopers practice and have gotten a lot of input on different degree turns, approaches, etc. to swooping. Believe it or not, there's a progressing. Up high, I practice a 270 but the first time someone tries it as a method to land, the best advice given to me was to start w/ a simple 90 degree turn and progress from there.

I'm not expert but like I said, I have been fortunate to jump with a lot of great swoopers and it upsets me to see others who, with not nearly enough skydiving experience, trying swooping as their method of landing w/out having ever tried it up high or progressed in to it. I just recently witnessed a jumper w/ 150 jumps try such a thing and break his phemor. It could have been worse.

Just thought I'd make a suggestion

[TB99 0]

A good start is to pull on both front risers on final so you can get some speed build up and release before flare and flare. This way you can start getting the feel of what it's like seeing the ground rush at ya faster (can't get that practicing at altitude). The timing on release and flare depend on how much you pull down, the type of canopy, wing loading, etc. You can practice this one without too much risk. Once you get used to the faster dive with both front risers, start doing a small 45 degree turn, not even 90 yet. Feel how that is and work your way to 90 and more degrees. Stay on double front risers for a while until you're used to it and know how the canopy planes out. These are just tips, take em as you see fit:)

And yea, you're talking about PNF (Patrick No Flare) .. most people who are experienced with front riser turns can get themselves out of low turn situations by stabbing out with the brakes, but that comes with experience. He didn't have enough experience to realize what was going on when he frapped it in. (My opinion anyways).

Trailer 11/12 was the best. Thanks for the memories ... you guys rocked!

[rmcvey 0]

Like you say, peolple just don't have any idea of a safe progression when it comes to swoop landings. 99% of dzs have no formal instruction on even the basics how a canopy flies, both the theory of and the practical aspects. But I cant see this lasting for many more years.
If I had never been to the States, or had DZ.com for a wealth of knowledge, i wouldnt have a clue what would happen if i pulled down my front riser/s.

When you talked about practicing up high, definatelly and i would also say that on my first 10 front riser approaches i didnt even do a 90, just a straight in to get used to the feel of things.

Another good thing i would often practice is while up high, go through your landing and practice an "emergency stop" a various stages of the swoop, by banging out of the turn with toggles, again, to get the "feel" of how your canopy reacts.

Also about 3 or 4 times now ive purposeely not used any front risers and just landed normally, straigt in with a normal flare, even when i could have safely started a front riser approach, this is because
i found i would get into the habit of front riser landings, and then feel kinda "let down" if for whatever reason I had to land normally. This "i must swoop" kind of state of mind was what got me worried. So i learnt not to swoop and not feel bad!! Even when i could of!
Learn to call it off in a heartbeat if things aren't perfect.

Im still a novice myself and am enjoying learning but have like many seen ones gone wrong so go steady, respect your canopy and always expect someone else to f*ck up Coz they always do!!!!!

[PLFXpert 0]

Quote

A good start is to pull on both front risers on final so you can get some speed build up and release before flare and flare. This way you can start getting the feel of what it's like seeing the ground rush at ya faster (can't get that practicing at altitude).

Are you kidding? All I do is practice on my front risers up high. You can totally practice that stuff up high. You can hear the speed and feel it as well. You don't need the ground rush to learn that until you're ready.

[Watcher 0]

Its a bit different across the ground. Up high 4 feet makes no difference. Across the ground 4 feet could mean the difference of a nice turf surf, and a dirty violent tumble. Its a very important aspect that can only be practiced at ground level.

Jonathan

Jonathan Bartlett
D-24876
AFF-I

[Jimbo 0]

Agreed. All the practicing up high in the world doesn't really give you a good feeling, at least in my opinion, for how much altitude you've lost. It doesn't give you the ground rush that just may save your life one day. On the other hand, I think it's a good thing, up high, to become familiar with what your canopy does when given front riser input, how it dives, how it planes out, etc...

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[crazy 0]

Quote

I've noticed a few people who want to learn to swoop start off trying it at swooping levels. I thought I'd suggest people trying it up high first.

That's an interesting concept but i'm not sure it's a very productive training method. At altitude, you can learn canopy control, but this is not specific to swooping. Anyway, you must be a skilled canopy pilot before even thinking about swooping.
Swooping is not the ability to pull a riser or a toggle, it's a whole set of knowledge, abilities and skills on top of this. The big parts are planning the pattern (and the outs), flying the pattern (and knowing that you are), identifying the problems early, aborting and recovering safely, Few of these can be tried in a realistic way without the ground as a reference.
Of course, there are some specific techniques that you might want to try up high, but not so many.

bb
--
Come

[cobaltdan 0]

"That's an interesting concept but i'm not sure it's a very productive training method. At altitude, you can learn canopy control, but this is not specific to swooping."

i dissagree, it is very productive:

a huge part of swooping is your sense of balance, for lack of a better term. practicing up high will help you develop your sense of balance that tells you at what position in your arc you are.

swooping is all about the perfect arc.

with practice you can fly any canopy new or familiar and after a series of manuevers up high develop a sense for the canopy's movement in 3 dimensional space. you should be able to close your eyes, execute a turn to swoop, and know at what part of your arc you are, blind... newbie swoopers: up high in clear airspace, close your eyes and execute a turn to a level swoop, open your eyes and confirm you are not sinking or climbing/ practice until you have the feel ingrained. when beginning it is easier if you do not use a full face helmet so you can feel the wind on your face...this skill should be second nature before you transition to ground level swooping.

remember visuals are of course very important for ground swooping, but they can fool you !

i.e we can all ride a bike blind folded, straight, in circles, etc... but someone can not ride without that learned sense of balance even with sight.

to many people swoop canopies without fully learning the above sense of balance skill, with them it is only a matter of time before they get bit.

be safe.

sincerely,

dan<><>
www.extremefly.com

Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)

[crazy 0]

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swooping is all about the perfect arc.

I don't call a perfect arc ending at 1000 feet a swoop. If it ends 20 feet above the ground, i call it a cockup. If it ends 6 feet below, it can be called a fatality. So, can you explain how the newbie with his perfect 360 front riser arc at 1000 feet will transfer safely this into swooping?

I completely agree that learning to fly at altitude is important. I also completely agree that one of the requirements before learning to swoop is to have a good knowledge of the canopy and good skills to fly and land it. But i completely disagree when people claim that flying skills at altitude can safely transfer to the first steps of swooping. Training to do 270 front riser turns at altitude might even have the adverse effect to convince the newbie that a 90 degrees is an appropriate first step to learn swooping. This is already a dangerous lack of discipline, judgement and discernement.

bb
--
Come

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Hey Carrie and everyone....I'll start by saying that I don't swoop, cos aI can't afford to...Titanium hassles and all..

But I would heartily recommend this..
http://www.afn.org/skydive/sta/highperf.pdf

It describes a whole load of aerodynamics and techno stuff, but the end of eth document suggests a swoop progression which may be useful.
Download it and print via Acrobat, it prints a lot better than it looks on the screen.....


see also
http://www.afn.org/skydive/sta/cancontrol.html
http://www.afn.org/skydive/sta/flynland.html
http://www.afn.org/skydive/sta/landing.html
http://www.afn.org/skydive/sta/accc/
Cya
D

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[PLFXpert 0]

I never said it's a no-fail transision to swooping but I think it's a LOT SMARTER to practice really getting to know your canopy up high, how it flies, playing w/ your front risers, etc. before you start on the ground. Someone who never did that up high that immediately starts near the ground is asking for an injury at the very least, I think.

[ramon 0]

I can't count how many times I opened up at 14k and practiced various riser dives and flares on every canopy from 175 to 97.

I firmly believe those extra minutes under canopy with no traffic make up for a lot of holding in brakes at 3k from a skydive.

Regular skydives do not give you enough time to play with your canopy especially if it is a small canopy.

"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce.

[Samurai136 0]

1. Practicing riser turns up high informs the pilot how much altitude they will lose in X degrees of turn and returning to level flight.

2. No one here is recommending that after doing 2-50 practice 360 degree riser turns above 2000', a student should then attempt a 360 (or even a 45 degree) turn to final.

Swooping should be learned following a specific skill development progression. Goto a canopy pilot school, read the USPA's articles on swooping etc.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[PLFXpert 0]

My points exactly

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[diveout 0]

Staying current is so important in every aspect of this sport, especially high performance landings. Many of the people who I've seen make mistakes under fast canopies (Including myself), were unfamiliar with some aspect of thier landing. Higher degree of turn to final, new or borrowed canopy, differend dropzone, never swooped a pond...ect. Or it was their third or fourth jump in the past 30 days.

Staying current allows for familiarity with surrounding conditions so that you can focus on one new thing at a time (double fronts on final, or your first 45deg. turn for example).

Don't spend two or three weeks away from your canopy training and just try to pick up where you left off. I feel most comfortable under my canopy (xaos @ 2.0) making at least 12-15 jumps a week. The best canopy pilots often make twice that many.

Just my opinion, Dan Para-PerfPB#130

[PLFXpert 0]

I couldn't agree more, but...the best canopy pilots are sponsored which makes it easier to do that many jumps a week.

Staying current is key, but not everyone can do that many jumps a week

I usually jump every week but only get about 3-5 in. I haven't started swooping yet, and probably won't for a while longer, but when I do, I plan on trading in that 3-5 for maybe 6-10 hop-n-pops until I become consistant. I also am a full-time student right now, so when I grad in December I'm sure I'll be able to afford twice+ as many jumps so those #s will increase.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

To all:
there are already volumes written in this forum about ways to get into swooping. ALL involve working on your turns at altitude prior to bringing your turns down to ground level. To reitterate some of what has been posted elsewhere in this forum:

-one first starts out with 90 degree carving turns after figuring out what straight-in, double-fronts will do for you. Dump very high, then do a four second diving turn, starting at an easily recognizable spot on your alti. Once the turn is complete and you have released your riser, the canopy will follow it's own natural recovery arc. Once you feel yourself back "under" the canopy, check your alti again. The difference in those two altitudes is the altitude you ought to be making your final turn, assuming you make the exact same type of turn. Do this, and you will have a high probability of success. Try to work it out down low, on regular skydives, and you will find yourself both too high, then in the dirt on a regular basis.

-180, 270, or whatever you choose, should all take nearly the exact same amount of time to perform. Slower and you will get no more velocity out of it on the bottom end; faster, and you will come out of the hole too high and look like a geek flying accross the ground at 20 feet.

-All of this assumes a person is swooping along a predetermined path our course. One should aim for SOMETHING on every skydive. Those who throw wild turns with no apparent method to their madness will end up plowing into spectators or other skydivers. Plan your dive ALL THE WAY TO THE GROUND, then dive your plan.

Chuck
Your friendly neighborhood touring professional

[crazy 0]

Quote

1. Practicing riser turns up high informs the pilot how much altitude they will lose in X degrees of turn and returning to level flight.

So, please, explain me how a newbie can accurately know how much altitude he looses, for instance in a 270 degrees turn? What error do you expect on the estimation, knowing that an altimeter is accurate at +- 100 feet at best, and that the newbie will probably never do the same turn twice.
How is the beginner supposed to use this inaccurate information in his actual swoop training?

Quote

2. No one here is recommending that after doing 2-50 practice 360 degree riser turns above 2000', a student should then attempt a 360 (or even a 45 degree) turn to final.

Directly quoted from the first post of this thread:

Quote

Up high, I practice a 270 but the first time someone tries it as a method to land, the best advice given to me was to start w/ a simple 90 degree turn and progress from there.

"Start w/ a simple 90 degrees" is the "best advice" from a DZ with "a lot of great swoopers" (sic). I think that at least one of these "great swoopers" is less than an impressive teacher.
Focus on the turns when you teach swooping and be sure that some students will believe that you can "start w/ a simple 90 degrees". There are probably safer ways to teach swooping.

bb
--
Come

[parachutist 1]

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I can't count how many times I opened up at 14k and practiced various riser dives and flares on every canopy from 175 to 97.

One thing a low-timer might not realize is that practicing flares up high is also how one learns the stall characteristics of a canopy. They need to know such things as: does the canopy give easy-to-recognize signs when it is near stall point, or does it seem to suddenly wad up into a ball of $@#! and drop you? If the latter is the case, then practicing up high gives more experience in recognizing the not-so-obvious signs.

I think this is something that you & I practice by habit without thinking much of it, but I'm sure that some jumpers will not recognize the importance of knowing stall characteristics until they find themselves in a compromising situation near the ground.

My eye-opening experience involved me digging out of a corner... and digging too much... so that I was about 10 feet off the ground planed-out and travelling at high speed with very little flare remaining. If I had not known that I had almost no flare remaining, there is a good chance that I would have tried to slow down more by flaring more and stalled the canopy. I'm pretty sure this would have resulted in a few broken bones.

Chris

[Samurai136 0]

Quote

So, please, explain me how a newbie can accurately know how much altitude he looses, for instance in a 270 degrees turn? What error do you expect on the estimation, knowing that an altimeter is accurate at +- 100 feet at best, and that the newbie will probably never do the same turn twice.
How is the beginner supposed to use this inaccurate information in his actual swoop training?

I use the Pro model Digitude. It reads in 10's of feet. Making turns up high and let the canopy plane out on it's own, I read the altimeter before and after the turn. Then, it's just like Chuck says, " Plan the Dive, Dive the plan."

Also staying current, and building low altitude awareness so I can eyeball 500'; 600'; 700'; and Know how long a turn I can make and return to level flight. The Samurai is trimmed w/ a negative recovery arc so I let off the front risers about 25' agl and let the canopy fly uuntil it needs a bit of rear riser and a flare.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[Sonic 0]

You mean 250'?

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It's like something out of that twilighty show about that zone

[PhreeZone 15]

No.... 25 feet. On other canopies in order to keep your speed up you have to hold the risers till 15 or lower.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Sonic 0]

You mean like Luigi's 46?

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It's like something out of that twilighty show about that zone

[PLFXpert 0]

Quote

"Start w/ a simple 90 degrees" is the "best advice" from a DZ with "a lot of great swoopers" (sic).

Yes, some of the best swoopers in the world jump in Deland. I watch them all, how high/low, etc they begin their turns, what degree turns they do, etc. all the time.

The advice I was given by one in particular was not to start out trying a 270 or 360 degree turn when you're just learning but to start smaller. I interpreted that to mean something more along the lines of 90 degrees.

Obviously, I wouldn't try anything w/out prior instruction, and as I mentioned, I am a ways away from being skillfully ready to attempt swooping.

My entire point was how important it is to play w/ your front risers at altitude, make turns w/ your front and rear risers, see how your canopy reacts, read your altimeter, etc., listen to your acceleration, feel your accleration and just really be comfotable w/ your canopy and know how it flies before you try swooping.

I can't imagine why you would rather someone who never before did any of this to go right into trying swooping.

I've seen it a few times and in every case the person got injured. Luckily, I haven't personally witnessed the fatalities but have read about them numerous time sin Parachutist. I think swooping is incredible and can't wait to do it, myself, I was just hoping I could make a small suggestion so people might make a smarter decision about it and when to try it for the first time, etc.

I think I'll leave it at that...many of my closest skydiving friends and my boyfriend are swoopers and I wouldn't want this to reflect any on them. I love my boyfriend and friends and respect all the advice they have given me.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[Sonic 0]

What I've started to do is when getting into the pattern and following it round, i use front risers instead of the toggles, so I'm starting to get a feel of how the canopy reacts to these inputs. I'm not going to start using them low for a while yet, but it's good to do these things I feel.

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It's like something out of that twilighty show about that zone