Learning to swoop

[grega 0]

i'm learning how to swoop. and as far as i know the best swoops are made, if you (pilot) make as little disturbance (turbulence) in the air as possible. Meaning no snappy turns, all motions are smooth (slowly letting up front risers, slowly putting on brakes,...). One other thing is that you shouldn't pull front riser too far down. if you pull front riser to low, parachute starts hopping, like if it was ridding down the stairs, and that is not smooth.

when i was trying this up in the air, i could feel this hopping (ride down the stairs) only when i pulled both front risers too low. i never felt it when i pulled only one riser, no matter how deep. if i pulled it lower, i only made a sharper turn without any hopping.
is this correct, or is there a limit of how low front riser should go, even if you are making a turn.

"George just lucky i guess!"

[Samurai136 0]

If you pull your front risers down and it does the "hoppy" thing, that's bad.

That means your brakes are too short and you are pulling the tail down in addition to the nose of the canopy. Nose dives and the tail trys to lift... Hop Hop Hop. DO NOT use both front risers until you have the brake lines lengthened.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[AiRpollUtiOn 0]

I noticed this hopping thing on my Sabre, at a certain point it would do that but if I pulled the front riser even further, this would stop.
I asked a few other guys flying Sabres to try it out, and they all had the same story.

Maybe not such a good idea close to the ground, but you can always try it out up high, maybe you'll learn something more about your canopy.

"Don't make me come down there" - God.

My site:http://www.skystudio.nl/video.html
Some of my vids: http://www.youtube.com/user/TomSkyStudio

[Snowflake 0]

As Sam136 noted when the canopy bucks from front riser input it's because your brake lines are too short or your pulling to hard on the front risers causing the brake lines to pull the tail down. Ask someone who really knows about canopys and swooping at your DZ for further guidance

[grega 0]

yes i know that it hopps because the brake lines pull the tail down. And only if i pull front risers to hard. So that means that there is a limit to where you should pull front risers. It's all clear to me and i understand.
But i'd like to know if there is a limit to where to pull only one front riser. Because for example. if i pull both front risers for about 10-15 inches canopy starts hopping. But if i pull only one riser 10-15 inches or even more, canopy just turns. harder i pull faster it turns, without any hopping.
And i'd like to know, is there a limit of how hard one front riser should be pulled.

"George just lucky i guess!"

[Samurai136 0]

The length of the brake lines is the issue. You should be able to pull the both front risers as far as you desire and not have the canopy buck and 'hop'. The canopy doesn't buck in a turn because toggle and riser inputs are the same. i.e. right turn or left turn.


If the brakes lines are not addressed, do not pull both risers more than 9 inches.


What are you jumping, anyway?


Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[freeflir29 0]

Just lengthen the brake lines 1-2 inches at a time until all the "hopping" and bucking stops. If you want to be a swoop dog you have to learn to fly with the canopy set up correctly. Don't be shy in asking for help from a rigger in doing this if you haven't before.

[grega 0]

hmm this is strange...
i read different in a book
"The aerodynamics and piloting of high performance Ram-Air parachutes by Jerry Sobieski may 13,1994"

i quote:
"Does reaching for the front risers cause a tail deflection? Ideally, you would like enough slack in the control lines so that grabbing and pulling front risers does not significantly deflect the tail. Now pull both front risers a couple inches. The air speed increases. Release them. Try it again, this time pull them a bit further. At some point, the front half of the canopy will be deflected so far that the canopy starts to
lose it's airfoil shape and assumes a sort of "stair step" shape. You typically do not want to pull front risers as far as to distort the airfoil. If you do, the boundary layer can no longer flow smoothly across the canopy surfaces and will separate from the wing somehwere around the B and C line attachment points. As the boundary layer detaches and re-attaches, the canopy will surge or bounce. This eratic behavior makes control difficult and can result in nose roll or total collapse of the canopy. So, the object is to find out how much front riser input the wing will accept without significant airfoil distortion. Normally, small canopies will not take more than a few inches. Also note that the amount of effort it takes to pull front risers. Small, high
aspect, high incidence canopies will require less "pull" than more conservative canopies of the same size. There are many factors that dictate the amount of front riser tension in a canopy Just because you can physically or even easily pull front risers doesn't mean the canopy can stay under those conditions.
Know thy canopy."

and you are saying:"You should be able to pull the both front risers as far as you desire and not have the canopy buck and 'hop'."

i'm confused. it's true that the book is old but laws of aerodynamics are still the same???

please advise... thanks

"George just lucky i guess!"

[rmsmith 1]

Quote

i'm learning how to swoop. and as far as i know the best swoops are made, if you (pilot) make as little disturbance (turbulence) in the air as possible..

You should also learn with a canopy that was designed for swooping, which usually means something with a large recovery arc. This will enable you begin your dives up higher and "ride-the slope" until its time to flatten your glide prior to the flare. For example, trying to swoop a Sabre or Spectre will be more difficult than a Vengeance of the same size. Be careful out there!

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

You should also learn with a canopy that was designed for swooping, which usually means something with a large recovery arc. This will enable you begin your dives up higher and "ride-the slope" until its time to flatten your glide prior to the flare. For example, trying to swoop a Sabre or Spectre will be more difficult than a Vengeance of the same size. Be careful out there!

I disagree. People don't need a hot rod to learn to drive agressively, similarly, you don't need a swoop machine to learn to swoop. Start your swoops on a less radical canopy, make the transition to something hotter when you're really ready.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[PhreeZone 15]

>You should also learn with a canopy that was designed for swooping

Unless you have more money then the average jumper this is rarely possible. For example most jumpers try swooping on double fronts for a few times to see if they like it or not. If they got a canopy made only to swoop they would be stuck with somethng that no longer lands how they want to and would swoop only since they now own a canopy that is made to swoop. I'd rather see some one jump a Sabre and learn double fronts and 45 degree carves to see if they would rather swoop or do straight in approaches then see someone go from a Spectre to a Vengence only to find they hate swooping and would rather have the landings back on their old canopy.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[grega 0]

I agree with Jimbo. it's true that if you want to make good swoops, it's much easier under vengance or crossfire or similar.
But for the learning curve i thing it's better to start swooping with something less swoopable, like sabre or pd 9-cell 210 (like mine-borrowed). With that kind of parachute you have to try real hard to have a good swoop, and you can learn some good habits with slower "not swoopable" parachute. and it's much safer. Then when you think you learned everything you could, you get yourself a swooping machine...
but that is just my opinion

"George just lucky i guess!"

[rmsmith 1]

Quote

I disagree.

Based on sampling an elliptical canopy or two that has a large recovery arc, right?

I've bought, flown, and sold a variety of canopies over the last two seasons ranging in size from 165-sqft to 230-sqft in both 7-cell and 9-cell construction, semi and fully elliptical, with and without a large recovery arc. I've found that I prefer the Crossfire canopy's opening and flight characteristics, and I currently own two of them. I haven't flown either of these canopies anywhere near their limits as I don't have the moxie, but I can relate to the large recovery arc fight characteristics from personal experience.

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

Based on sampling an elliptical canopy or two that has a large recovery arc, right?

Actually, yes.

Quote

I've bought, flown, and sold a variety of canopies over the last two seasons ranging in size from 165-sqft to 230-sqft in both 7-cell and 9-cell construction, semi and fully elliptical, with and without a large recovery arc. I've found that I prefer the Crossfire canopy's opening and flight characteristics, and I currently own two of them. I haven't flown either of these canopies anywhere near their limits as I don't have the moxie, but I can relate to the large recovery arc fight characteristics from personal experience.

That's nice, but with people starting to learn to swoop earlier and earlier it's important that they learn proper technique on something a little larger and a little less responsive, something that's more forgiving. After they've learned at least the basics on a Sabre, Safire, PD, whatever, they should consider the move to a larger elliptical and progress from there. No need to start them off on a hotrod when they can't drive the family wagon. Know what I mean?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[rmsmith 1]

Quote

That's nice, but with people starting to learn to swoop earlier and earlier it's important that they learn proper technique on something a little larger and a little less responsive, something that's more forgiving. After they've learned at least the basics on a Sabre, Safire, PD, whatever, they should consider the move to a larger elliptical and progress from there. No need to start them off on a hotrod when they can't drive the family wagon. Know what I mean?

Yes, I know what you mean. My two Crossfires are a 180-sqft and 189-sqft, loaded roughly at 1.4:1 and 1.3:1, respectively. I doubt that I'll ever develop the skills necessary to fly a small cross-braced canopy--just getting too old for that high energy stuff.

[freeflir29 0]

I learned on a PD 190 just fine. I'm on a Stilletto 170 now and at 262 total and over 100 on this canopy I'm ready to downsize and find a canopy with more dive. Each canopy is it's own animal so you will have to learn new techniques each time you change. However, the BASICS still remain the same for any canopy. A good pilot can swoop anything. Even a Manta 288 loaded at .5 or less. I've seen it done.

[Crashez 0]

Quote

I learned on a PD 190 just fine. I'm on a Stilletto 170 now and at 262 total and over 100 on this canopy I'm ready to downsize and find a canopy with more dive. Each canopy is it's own animal so you will have to learn new techniques each time you change. However, the BASICS still remain the same for any canopy. A good pilot can swoop anything. Even a Manta 288 loaded at .5 or less. I've seen it done.

I can personally vouch about Clay's ability to swoop the f-111's. And I just want to let everyone here know that a monarch 155 would probably be the last thing you would see someone swooping. But that is what I fly and I have used it to not only swoop our pond in Rome. But also have made some long swoops with it and I don't consider myself aggresive. As everyone has said a few times, but not quite the same. The canopy can make the difference. But the actions of the pilot DEFINATELY is the major factor in the out come. Just my humble thoughts.
CrashEZ

*
AIN'T IT COOL!!! ~~ John in broken arrow ~~
*