freeflyz 0 #1 July 31, 2002 I was just looking around and noticed that all the people jumping crossbraced and elliptical canopies have very low jump numbers.I'm not trying to be a canopy police or nothing,But it's scary when you see a guy/gal jumping Xaos 21 with 400 jumps!!!!!Some manufactures want a least 1000 ELLIPTICAL JUMPS before you try a crossbraced canopy!!!!In the ads you'll read"The xxxx brand canopy will allow HIGHLY EXPERIENCED pilots to explore a range of ram air flight never before possible".It's just scary seeing people jump canopies that are way over his/her experience!!!!!The question here is why did they buy the canopy to surf longer??? You can make any zero p canopy surf!!!!You just have to jump and pratice and make your canopy faster it doesn't come over night!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #2 July 31, 2002 Some people just think they are the exception. Some of those turn out to prove themselves exceptionally stupid.....still some others live long enough to learn. They are the true exceptions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #3 July 31, 2002 Luis, it says on your profile that you jump a rig with a 181 reserve. Is that an indicator of how large you are? If you are a big guy (as I would imagine, with that size reserve), and you are jumping a Crossfire 149 (a high performance eliptical) with only 350 skydives, then don't you fall into the catagory you are chastising? Nobody of consequence here on the forums preaches that it is good practice to downsize too rapidly or jump extreme performance mains before they have sufficient experience. True, there are people that are going to do what they want no matter what anyone else says, but they are the exception. Ten years ago, the main you are currently jumping would have been considered "extreme" for even a small guy. No way would anyone with under 500 jumps been able to purchase one from a reputable dealer. It is not uncommon at all for people to buy a 170 straight off student status now. Anyway, the purpose of my post was to see at what wingload you are jumping that Crossfire. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #4 July 31, 2002 QuoteLuis, it says on your profile that you jump a rig with a 181 reserve. Is that an indicator of how large you are? you are jumping a Crossfire 149 (a hig performance eliptical) with only 350 skydives a concern i have here in Luis's situation, is the main/reserve sizes. not long ago hoonswoop did a "test jump," with a small main, and a large reserve to determine what the results would/could be in a "2 out" situation, the results are posted in the safety and training forums somewhere, any way, it wasn't pretty. he wound up having to cut the main away. (he was jumping his J-4 with a belly mount, so he had 3 canopies) just so nobody freaks! Quote True, there are people that are going to do what they want no matter what anyone else says, but they are the exception. Ten years ago, the main you are currently jumping would have been considered "extreme" for even a small guy. No way would anyone with under 500 jumps been able to purchase one from a reputable dealer. It is not uncommon at all for people to buy a 170 straight off student status now. i think it's becoming "trendy" to go small on canopy size, and high on wing loads. why? i don't have a clue, i'm still searching for the answer(s) let's also bear in mind, there are "up jumpers" (who, themselfs are downsizing even further) selling small mains on the internet to anyone, doesn't matter who they are. there needs to be a system to hold these individuals accountable to whom they sell these canopys to. ideas anyone? my feeling is that we have so many GM's on the BOD at USPA, that maybe they could monitor jump numbers, and canopy progression a bit themselfs? i would also suggest that each USPA DZ have a S&TA actively monitoring landings, diciplines, etc...but i know this isn't going to happen, because of the $$$ an S&TA who is also a vidiot, and an AFF1 isn't likely to become the "safety nazi" on the landing area, when he/she could be making $$$ jumping. QuoteAnyway, the purpose of my post was to see at what wingload you are jumping that Crossfire. my "guess" is he's flying a 1.5-1.7 wing plus or minus a touch either way. i think whats happening nowadays is students are training and progressing at a much faster pace than years ago, due to the growing popularity of our sport, thus the need to "push them through" AFF, or AFP whatever the program may be, thus the inception of the USPA coach's course, to free up the AFF1's to jump with "newbies" we're actually giving them a "false sense of security" by giving them the idea that they can progress at that same pace, or faster right off of student status, which is a mistake. i've also made the observation that generally students get that 100th jump, then the infamous SCR jump, then progress straight into freeflying instead of RW, which means "SPEED" small canopies, and last, but not least swooping. it's guys like Chuck that can help with "experienced advice" to help out with these types of situations. great posts Mr. Blue! just ran accros this on another website, case, and point of what i said about canopy availability: Quote78 Xaos, 80 jumps, Blackberry - I love everything about these canopys, the landings are fantastic, the speed is incredible(tried jumping my old Stilleto 97 the other day and thought I was on a student canopy) except that I come down way too fast for my suroundings, I need a little bigger. Would like to trade for a 88 Xaos or slightly larger, but will sell for $1300.00 or offers. i left out the name to protect the poor devil, and didn't post his contact number for obvious reasons. at least he has come to the conclusion early enough to realize his mistake, unfortunately, i don't think 10 more square feet of canopy will do him any good, maybe 20 more.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyz 0 #5 July 31, 2002 have not up dated in a while have more jumps i'm loading it a 1.4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #6 July 31, 2002 Quotehave not up dated in a while have more jumps i'm loading it a 1.4 well, i wasn't far off on the wing load eh? i went back and noticed that you now have 720 skydives. how many jumps per month do you make? i've calculated 52.8 per month, assuming your last jump number of 350 is correct at the date you posted it, this means an average of 12 per weekend. your either a "jumping fool" and loving it, or you've misscalculated somewhere. no bother really, i'm just curious is all. take care, be safe. give that reserve/main sizing difference some thought. --Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #7 July 31, 2002 >not long ago hoonswoop did a "test jump," with a small main, and a large reserve to determine what the results would/could be in a "2 out" situation I seem to remember also that on another jump the results were not bad. Doubles outs can be BAD on identical canopies... >and high on wing loads. why? i don't have a clue, i'm still searching for the answer(s) Richand.... I seem to remember you are jumping a 170 at about 1.5ish thats pretty high on the loading too. I am about 400 jumps and still at a 1.25 loading. Yes, I've done 140 jumps this year so far since March/April/Spring thaw out so I'm pretty current and when ever I jump at a higher loading most by friends just shake their head and swear I'll break a bone. (One already beat me to that one ) I like the rush of speed as well as the next person, but I'm in no rush to die or get injured again. I'll keep my 150 for another few months or so and by the start of fall I might look for a 135 but that time I'll have 500 jumps or more and will only be looking at a 1.4 loading. >i would also suggest that each USPA DZ have a S&TA actively monitoring landings I've never even met the STA of one GM DZ I jump at and I've been there a few times now. STA's are jumpers first then advisors. Its hard to monitor every landing when you are still in freefall on a tandem and the RW'ers are landing. You can have 5000 good landings... but its the bad landing that will kill you and there is little the STA can do to prevent that landing except train you that speed is a byproduct of flying, not just the canopy. >then the infamous SCR jump I swear.... you texans think you set the rules for the world . Only a few old timers have their SCR's and SCS's around our DZ. I think its a southern thing only anymore... There are old skydivers, and there are bold skydivers... but there are few old and bold skydivers.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #8 July 31, 2002 QuoteI seem to remember also that on another jump the results were not bad. Doubles outs can be BAD on identical canopies... i jumped with him on that one, on pretty much identical canopys, all he could get it to do is biplane, but he did the "uneven" match jump first and went into violent twists, downplane, etc...which is the reason he made the test jumps to begin with. QuoteRichand.... I seem to remember you are jumping a 170 at about 1.5ish thats pretty high on the loading too. yeah, your right, it's 1.55 actally. i'm 6' 3" tall at 240# on the "hoof" 245 with pizza! and my gear weighs exactly 19#. but i've sought the advice of learned colleague(s) first, and progressed my way there slowly. plus i don't do anything silly under canopy, or on landings, remember, i'm 43, not 23. i have lived long enough to realize my mortality. with the Hornet 170 you speak of i stand it up, and surf in with a toe drag consistantly. if i was biffing, and busting my ass every landing, or even every 5 landings, i would "back up and punt" i consider myself, as do others i jump with a very safe and conservative sky diver. QuoteI am about 400 jumps and still at a 1.25 loading. Yes, I've done 140 jumps this year so far since March/April/Spring thaw out so I'm pretty current. I'll keep my 150 for another few months or so and by the start of fall I might look for a 135 but that time I'll have 500 jumps or more and will only be looking at a 1.4 loading. sounds like a plan! Quotei would also suggest that each USPA DZ have a S&TA actively monitoring landings I've never even met the STA of one GM DZ I jump at and I've been there a few times now. STA's are jumpers first then advisors. Its hard to monitor every landing when you are still in freefall on a tandem and the RW'ers are landing. my point exactly Quotethen the infamous SCR jump I swear.... you texans think you set the rules for the world . Only a few old timers have their SCR's and SCS's around our DZ. I think its a southern thing only anymore... i guess? we like to think of it as tradition, honoring one of the "old and bold sky diver's" QuoteThere are old skydivers, and there are bold skydivers... but there are few old and bold skydivers. timeless/ageless quip.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyz 0 #9 July 31, 2002 i avg 11 to 15 a weekend!!!!!two fast otters Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #10 July 31, 2002 Quotei avg 11 to 15 a weekend!!!!!two fast otters ok, it's official, i'm jealous! that must be nice.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #11 July 31, 2002 Hehe.. I do the same but mine are from Casa's usually. Wallet is complaining but I can silence it by tossing it in the bottom of the gear bag... I have found that the more jumps I put on smaller faster canopies the more I realise I can get more out of my larger canopy. I finally found the sweet spot on the riser where the longer I hold it there... the faster it dives. It took a lot of practice to find this spot on the canopy and be able to return to full flight then right back to it. Personally... I'm starting to think that all jumpers need to get CRW training before they get a HP canopy. I thought I was above average on my flying skills till I went up for my first crw jump. I never even got a stack in on the 2 way, I was all over the sky and could't dock or take a dock. Now I'm working on rotations in CRW stacks and my canopy skills are getting better and better all the time.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wlie 0 #12 August 1, 2002 QuoteSome people just think they are the exception. Some of those turn out to prove themselves exceptionally stupid.....still some others live long enough to learn. They are the true exceptions. I'm with Clay on this one. Right about the time I was ready to buy my first gear, I happened to chat with Ralph Hatley (Call Ralph) to get some ideas for a starter kit. His first question was if I wanted to grow to be an old skydiver. Because otherwise I'd be a statistic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kirils 1 #13 August 1, 2002 Jump #'s don't mean squat. Look at the fatality page in the USPA mag... people with 1000+ jumps pounding themselves to death on low turns! We have the only sport where you tend to get more likely to die with experience. What an endorcement to attract newbies! My first square canopy was an HP elipitical that I took on at just 17 jumps on squares. (I've had 250+ on T-10's) No problems...I've never had a major injury under an eliptical. I'm jumping a 108 Xaos 21 and consider the canopy stable and safe... MUCH safer and less radical than the 120 Diablo I demo'd or the 110 Espirit I used to jump. One DZ won't let me jump the Chaos because I need (according to the DZO) 500 eliptical jumps before I can use of the Chaos at their DZ. Bombing in on an overloaded Espirit 110 was OK though...go figure. OHHHH yes...I forgot, I live in PD country, I shouldn't have any complaints jumping a 76 Velocity..."Slow down! You are too young to be moving that fast!" Old Man Crawfish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #14 August 1, 2002 QuoteWe have the only sport where you tend to get more likely to die with experience. That's an unfair characterization of the sport. This sport is in large part as risky as one choses it to be. There are plenty of folks in this sport that have decided that they'll be conservative when it comes to being near the ground. For the most part, experience will work for and not against them.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #15 August 1, 2002 kirils, there have been a awfull lot of people with a couple hundred jumps boucing from low turns lately too.... I know of 2 in the UK just in the last months, and there have been a few in the US too.... Jumper nunbers may not mean everything, but its a good starting point for assessing experience and exposure to the sport. QuoteBombing in on an overloaded Espirit 110 was OK though Maybe you shouldnt have loaded it as much? what do you think?Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pal 0 #16 August 1, 2002 [My first square canopy was an HP eliptical that I took on at just 17 jumps on squaresquote] Your first square canopy was elipitical ????? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kirils 1 #17 August 1, 2002 I started jumping in 1968 with a modified T-10 and army surplus gear costing a total of $90.00. I moved on to $350.00 23' Russian Para-Commander copy called a Hapakommahep. In 1973 I stopped jumping after getting tired of violent openings and hitting the ground so hard on every jump. The fatality reports at the time showed more deaths occuring with experienced jumpers; not unlike today! After 300 or so jumps I decided the sport was too dangerous. (you don't know what I'm talking about unless you have done a cutaway with 1-1/2 shots and had to throw and shake your reserve to get it to open... (I had 8 mals in 300 jumps) I started back jumping 3 years ago because of the wonderful improvements in equipment! I have friends with 2000+ jumps that have never experienced a mal. Mals happened every 50 jumps in the old days of belly warts and Jerry Bird... it was a thing you just accepted with participation in the sport. So I bought a Heatwave for my first canopy after going through AFF in 1999. (17 jumps) It was a dream! You people don't know how good you have it. Years ago we got killed beacuse of equipment mals. Today people get killed skydiving because they get careless and stupid. It breaks my heart that with all the great gear you have, so many die...there is no excuse."Slow down! You are too young to be moving that fast!" Old Man Crawfish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyz 0 #18 August 1, 2002 Question do you hook your xaos???? just a question! and you can't say that jump numbers don't count, how do you think you become the best in freeflying,RW,Crw,swooping,etc? You keep jumping learning on ever jump!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyz 0 #19 August 1, 2002 ("Today people get killed skydiving because they get CARELESS and Stupid!") These are your own words maybe you should listen to yourself!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,661 #20 August 1, 2002 Some people with low jump numbers can handle high performance canopies, and some can't. The trouble is figuring out who is which. How much experience did a USAAF pilot need before being assigned a P47 or P51 or B24 during WWII? How much experience do the insurance companies demand in 2002 for a pilot to be "allowed" to fly a P47 or P51 or B24? Context is everything. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyz 0 #21 August 1, 2002 So in other words we should let a jumper with 18 jumps jump on a crossbraced canopy!!!And just hope that he/she does everything right!!!I agree with some people about having a system where you have to have the jump numbers before you can jump any canopy.Just like if you want to be a Aff jump master,you just don't walk up with 18 jumps and say you want to be one Right???So what is the difference when a person wants to by a hp canopy???? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kirils 1 #22 August 1, 2002 No beginners should not jump x-braced now, but I don't discount the possibility one day AFF students will jump x-braced. You probably aren't old enough to remember the issue with squares in the early days or the ZP controversy. These were considered "radical" technology and reserved for the highly experienced. Evolution is a painful process that bucks the majority."Slow down! You are too young to be moving that fast!" Old Man Crawfish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #23 August 1, 2002 QuoteHow much experience did a USAAF pilot need before being assigned a P47 or P51 or B24 during WWII? What was the crash rate? Pretty damn high...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyz 0 #24 August 1, 2002 You did't answer my question. Do you hook your xaos????You can tell me you've been jumping since the dawn of time.You say you did 300 round jumps and quit.Your profile say 383 jump,so you have jumped a square canopy only 83 times,hmmmmm and now your jumping a canopy that requires a least 1000 elliptical jumps???? But yet you say a person with 18 jumps should't jump a elliptical canopy but yet you did and uped the stakes more with a x-braced canopy with a mere 83 jumps,call me nutts! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #25 August 1, 2002 Ok.. this is getting a bit heated. One of the rules here is no personal attacks. Everyone has said want they want to either in this thread or in the past (search the archives). I think we can put this one to rest for now... Just remember on almost everything in skydiving, what works for one person probally won't work for the rest of the people.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
