Swooping a Spectre

[rmsmith 1]

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I would actually have to disagree with you there. With more speed it gives you more energy to work with. The flare can be initiated farther off the ground and gradually brought in. Unlike a "nominal speed approach" where all the energy must be used at precisely the right time in order to have a decent landing. I think more speed gives more lee way. Just my perception and .02....

This explaination sums up my thoughts on the matter quite well. Thanks!

[rmsmith 1]

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Well, I think you'd need to visit Perris to truely appreciate all the different weather conditions we have.

I was a California skydiver in the seventies and eighties, and I visited Lake Elsinore, Perris, and Taft several times too. I used to enjoy lounging in Bernie Danato's "living room" at Perris. Primarily, I was a Pope Valley, Antioch, and Livermore fixture. Now I'm in the Pacific Northwest where the skydiving season is roughly 22-weeks, and a twin otter DZ is 3-hours away; [sigh].

[Samurai136 0]

I think we're comparing apples and oranges here. On Ellipticals more speed is 'safer' because the flare is further up in the toggle stroke. Thus giving you more range/control in the stroke to fly the canopy to touchdown. Of course if the pilot sucks ass, any canopy is unsafe.

Speed building manuvers may be less safe uunder the spectre. Since it has a short recovery arc, doesn't stay in a dive like an elliptical, and is trimmed to fly flatter; the pilot has to stay in a speed building manuver until only the ideal flare point. If he gives up on the nmanuver too high the canopy will stay planed out at that altitude (let's say 10') until it loses enough momentum to return to normal flight. This scenario sounds unsafe.


While it's possible to plane an elliptical out to high, or balloon the canopy, it does afford the pilot the option of releasing a speed building manuver at a higher altitude, and continue diving/ maintaining built momentum until reaching the ideal surf window.

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[quade 3]

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While it's possible to plane an elliptical out to high, or balloon the canopy, it does afford the pilot the option of releasing a speed building manuver at a higher altitude, and continue diving/ maintaining built momentum until reaching the ideal surf window.

Uh huh . . . and what if the canopy pilot makes the mistake in the other direction? In other words, he times his flair too late instead of too early.

I'm thinking he pounds in a bit harder than if he didn't have all that excess speed.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Samurai136 0]

On a SPECTRE I don't think speed increases saftey.

On an elliptical, after a speed building manuver, the 'pounding it in' scenario you describe only occurs if the pilot is totally unresponsive and doesn't flare at all or initiates a riser turn too low.

On an elliptical, after building momentum, the flare begins higher in the toggle stroke thus a larger control range. If the pilot judges they intiated the flare too low, they have more control range in the stroke to get more lift and actually ascend.

This advice assumes that the pilot has followed some regimen of high performance canopy training and is not flying outside of thier piloting skill.

Like I said I think we are comparing apples and oranges.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[freeflyswc 0]

the right pilot can get a canopy (even a spectre) to swoop long distances. I've seen mike ortiz swoop a spectre 1/2 through skydive chicago's hanger VERY Impressive , untill rook made it to the other side with his velocity .

if you really want to swoop , get a canopy meant for it . landing a canopy like a crossfire or cobalt etc. straight in , or with slight riser inputs is safer (in my opinion ) than hooking the s#!t out of a spectre for the same swoop . also I think that the longer recovery arc gives you slightly more room for error on the altitude you start your "hook" turn

[freeflyswc 0]

I Might be a little late at posting this , but if you only have thirty five jumps , I think you should be more concerned about getting to the ground safely and getting to be a better skydiver . If your not going to quit the sport tomorrow why rush learning how to swoop ?

[billvon 2,406]

>With more speed it gives you more energy to work with.

That's the performance aspect. From a safety aspect, more speed gives you more energy to injure yourself. The impact is four times as hard (and is four times more likely to hurt you) if you land at 20mph as opposed to 10mph.

>Unlike a "nominal speed approach" where all the energy must be
> used at precisely the right time in order to have a decent landing.

I don't know of any canopy that is more forgiving at higher speeds than at lower speeds. If you do everything just right, you will have a good landing under any modern canopy. If you screw up, how badly you get hurt depends on how hard you impact - and the faster you're going when you hit, the harder the impact will be.

[freeflir29 0]

I see your point Bill. I'm assuming proper pilot inputs and you are coming from the "When you do everything wrong" side. If you do everything wrong....it's gonna hurt regardless....

[hobbes4star 0]

clay you should never assume anything.

if fun were easy it wouldn't be worth having, right?

[evilivan 0]

I load my Spectre about 1.45-1. Although I am still pretty conservative (no more than 180's), I swoop it most landings and get some nice surfs - especially on nil wind days... When I started on the front risers last year I was consistently too low but thinking I was right - i.e. using the toggles to flatten the glide angle, but not realising this was wrong. I got to the point where I hit the ground pretty hard and was VERY VERY lucky not to snap things...... (I did have to get medical attention for the resulting back injury though)
Sooo, my advice (usual small print: I'm no expert etc) is ALWAYS ALWAYS start your swoop high and wide - If you are doing a 180, you don't need to reverse your direction on the line of flight (like a snap hook), but start it wide and bring it round to your intended "runway". That way you always have outs.

"If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation."
David Brent

[evilivan 0]

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I Might be a little late at posting this , but if you only have thirty five jumps , I think

Did he not say 35 jumps on his Spectre.........?

"If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation."
David Brent

[MadQ 0]

OK, so it's an old thread.
Anyway... I've been swooping Spectres (with few exceptions) for the last 400 jumps or so. I probably have a little over 100 with a Spectre 210, the rest of them were under 170. The wingloading on the 210 was about 0.9 to 1.0; on the 170 it's a smidgen over 1.41.
The Spectre is capable of awesome swoops, but it ain't easy. I started messing around with front risers on the 210, at first very high, so the canopy had recovered well before landing (100 - 50 ft above the ground). I gradually, and over many jumps went lower. In addition to front riser input, I learned all aspects of the Spectre, did some CRW (only involved in one wrap ;-), rear-risers flares, no-flare landings, accuracy... In short, by the time I downsized I was ready for it, although going down to a 190 would have been wiser.
I can, and have outswooped high-performance, elliptical canopies at similar wingloading. I could swoop the 210 across the entire width of the runway. At SGC, the pea pit is a huge X, over which I have swooped the 210 numerous times. With the 170, I have outswooped a Stiletto 120 (granted, Rastas is light and skinny; also I'm not 100% sure it was a Stiletto)
The secret to swooping the Spectre is precise riser- and toggle input. Hook turns are NOT necessay. In fact, swoops are best with gradual carving turns of about 30 - 40 degrees, stopping the turn slowly with the opposite front riser. Hitting the sweet spot (where the canopy dives straight to the ground) took many, many jump to figure out.
If you hit the sweet spot just right, you now have to gradually let the front risers up; meaning gradually, and not slow. You then have to start giving toggle input, however I wouldn't call it flaring. At this point you absolutely have to know your canopy, and feel its every tiny movement and vibration. If you're not heading precisely into the wind, the canopy may become twitchy, for which you have to compensate. Now all you have to do is give exactly the right amount of toggle input to keep the canopy level, and get every last ounce of lift out of it. I can't explain how to do that - it's done by feel and intuition.
The one thing I have yet to master is a perfect tippy-toe up-step landing after the swoop on no-wind days. I'm getting pretty darn close though. BTW by up-step I mean simply putting weight on my feet when the canopy has no more lift. It's kinda like stepping up at the end of people-mover or escalator.
-- MadQ

-- MadQ

Eagles may fly, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

[rmsmith 1]

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The Spectre is capable of awesome swoops, but it ain't easy. I started messing around with front risers on the 210, at first very high, so the canopy had recovered well before landing (100 - 50 ft above the ground). I gradually, and over many jumps went lower.

I have never felt confident doing any riser inputs near the ground. The Spectre planes out of a dive so fast that it is a tough canopy to loose altitude with as your arms will simply wear-out first. I'd still be floating by at 1,000-ft watching people on the same dive standing on the ground flaking-out their canopies! I think that the Spectre is an awesome canopy, it just wasn't designed to be flown aggressively. It's more of a "enjoy-n-relax" type of canopy. Certainly the finest openings!

[freeflir29 0]

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it is a tough canopy to loose altitude with as your arms will simply wear-out first

Try a gentle carve. The riser pressure will remain light all the way through. Then when you get used to that you can start rapidly increasing the turn rate right near the ground. That's how I do my Stilletto every jump. Practice though....that shit can be dangerous.