Carves vs Dives

[Zennie 0]

I vaguely recall this being discussed in another thread, but I can't seem to turn it up in a search.
I know they're a lot more difficult to do, from an accuracy standpoint, but can you generate the same amount of forward speed from a slow gradual carve that you can from a hard front riser dive? Are there any folks in competition using the gradual carve approach?
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

[jdhill 0]

I think I remember reading somewhere that JC likes carves
http://www.aerialfusion.com

[freeflyguy 0]

I would need to see what is in your mind to understand what it is you mean, but, If your carve is too slow, no, you can't build up as much speed as a better executed more aggressive carve.
On the other hand, if you snap the front riser, one, around, you will not get as much speed as a nicely executed riser carve.
The other thing you may not know is the cross braced canopies are simply a different animal. I jumped a Stilleto 135 today. Oh gosh, it felt slow. That is a pretty rad canopy, but to say that all that a small crossbrace canopy pilot has to say about canopy flight applies to your canopy, it aint the same. Sort of, but, truthful, they do things different

[hookit 0]

Hey there, Ted. Good question.
Since none of 'authorities' have posted yet I'll go ahead and post some ramblings on the subject.
I don't believe you can get the same forward speed out of a slow gradual carve as you would from either a steep carve or a full-on dive.
I believe that usually the greatest forward speed can be attained by a long sustained steep carve rather than a snap turn which creates a straight-in dive though.
Unfortunately I haven't seen any of the pro swoop meets so I'm not sure what the setup of choice is although I've heard more have gone to carving rather than a snappy hook.
-Trey

[bhale 0]

I don't think you'll see many comp. swoopers using "gradual" carves. However, a more aggressive carving turn vs. a snap riser hook can produce awesome speed for swoops. This brings the conversation of, swinging out from center of canopy, back to the table. Real snappy hooks can do that, which, when done at the correct altitude, can also produce terrific speed for swoops. I am a fan of longer, aggressive carves.

[Zennie 0]

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I don't believe you can get the same forward speed out of a slow gradual carve as you would from either a steep carve or a full-on dive.
I believe that usually the greatest forward speed can be attained by a long sustained steep carve rather than a snap turn which creates a straight-in dive though.

That was sort of going to be my follow-up... what level of steepness in the carve is optimal.
The reason I ask is that I'm seriously considering going to the carve approach. I haven't had anything bad happen in a hard dive yet, but I've seen the results.
I'm not planning on going into swoop competitions or anything, so if I lost 10-20 feet because I went to a carve that'd be OK with me. Still, I do like to do a nice swoop. So I figured while I was still not really set in my ways, I'd learn a more forgiving approach, even if it means I may have to work a little more at it up front to dial in the accuracy.
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

[rhino 0]

I know Hook dives,, You have allot more airspace to worry about when carving. When doing a dive you only use a slither of airspace and there is no doubt as to where you are going. Something like that.
Blue Skies .....

[airdrew20012001 0]

I have been doing a lot of both and here's what I think: I like an agressive carve over a snapping hook turn and can generate the same amount, if not more, ground speed. The snapping hook turn is dangerous as hell too because you have a lower margin of error and must really commit to the turn. If you don't have exactly the right altitude on a carve you can over carve then come back if you are too high or stop a little short and use a little harness input to straighten yourself out if too low. If you are too low on a snapper then you have to panic stab and pray for the best results. This is doubly true during the learning phase. If you are concerned about taking up too much airspace with a carve then you might think about opening higher, staying in brakes longer, landing further away or what have you. I wouldn't recommend snapping a hook turn in heavy traffic for the same reasons of commitment and lower margin of error.
But hey, that's just what I think.
Drewfus McDoofus

[Hooknswoop 19]

I make an aggressive front riser turn to double fronts for my hook turns. I have found it leaves a wide margin for error, amout of doubles, rate of initial turn, how much I tuck all affects recovery arc and speed. If you find yourself low in a carve and let off, you now have to land in a different dirrection than you initially planned on or carve. This may be bad if the new direction has an obstacle I the way. It also makes you less predictable to other canopy pilots. "Which direction is that guy going to roll out on?" Everyone knows exactly where I am going, every time and they can account for my flight path, I am very predictable and that helps w/ traffic. I also stay out of the center of the landing area, I prefer the edges. "If someone is landing to my right, they will end up in that big pine tree", so less traffic worries for me. I also try and get down first so I don't have to deal w/ traffic. People don't tend to like someone going by them at 90+ andI try to prevent that, but if I am last out, I simply can't wait for the larger canopies to land, I am going to beat them and down and therefore I have to pass them. I try to pass them high, but that can simply put me in the middle of the pack. It can be difficult to deal w/ other pilots after the landing because they didn't like me passing them, but they tend to only see it from their side. I don't own the sky/landing area, but neither do they. We have to co-exist peacefully. I get a lot of ugly stares from odler jumpers on larger canopies. Looks like I drifted off-topic, sorry.
Hook

[Zennie 0]

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Looks like I drifted off-topic, sorry.

No those are all good things to think about.
I usually hang out in half brakes and wait for some of the faster folks to get down and then try to place myself between the "fast" & "slow" groups. If I go to the carve approach I may just have to do hop-n-pops more often, open higher or land away from the main landing area.
I've been toying with the idea of practicing over by the swoop ditch anyway (not in it, just by it).
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

[jdhill 0]

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I usually hang out in half brakes and wait for some of the faster folks to get down and then try to place myself between the "fast" & "slow" groups.

Don't forget about that other group that tends to be a little fast that is at the back of the plane (video guys and instructors)... some folks that camp out just screw up the whole pattern.(not saying you, I've never had an issue with your landing patterns).
http://www.aerialfusion.com

[freeflir29 0]

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not in it, just by it

Zennie, I don't think it's really ever a good idea to be "in" the ditch....
"It's all about the BOOBIES!"

[jdhill 0]

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I've been toying with the idea of practicing over by the swoop ditch anyway

I land over there every chance I get... can't do it when I'm doing tandems vids or team stuff... but every other chance I get... you just have to look out for the wayward skybarg doing the staight in thing from 500' (they should not be on that side of the runway, but they always are).
http://www.aerialfusion.com

[Zennie 0]

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you just have to look out for the wayward skybarg doing the staight in thing from 500' (they should not be on that side of the runway, but they always are

Heh. Thanks for the tip.
I may not be able to try it this weekend, a major fire just came my way & I may have to work over the weekend.
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

[hookit 0]

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If you find yourself low in a carve and let off, you now have to land in a different dirrection than you initially planned on or carve. This may be bad if the new direction has an obstacle I the way.

This is very true and is exactly why we should always leave ourselves an out. I always try and set up such that at least the last 90 degrees of my carving turn are free of obstacles. That way, if I find myself too low to complete the turn, I can get off the riser early without having to worry about hitting a hangar or a tree. Fortunately for me I jump at a dz with a very large, open landing area and this is relatively easy to accomplish regardless of what the winds are doing.
-Trey

[jdhill 0]

did they find out how much time you were spending on DZ.com and said you owed it to them?
http://www.aerialfusion.com

[Hooknswoop 19]

"It also makes you less predictable to other canopy pilots. "Which direction is that guy going to roll out on?" Everyone knows exactly where I am going, every time and they can account for my flight path, I am very predictable and that helps w/ traffic."
"This is very true and is exactly why we should always leave ourselves an out. I always try and set up such that at least the last 90 degrees of my carving turn are free of obstacles. That way, if I find myself too low to complete the turn, I can get off the riser early without having to worry about hitting a hangar or a tree."
Right, but if I am coming in behind you, I don't know where you are going and it makes it difficult to plan my approach around you. If you roll out in a direction I don't expect or different from what you did last time, that complicates my approach. So from a traffic standpoint, I don't like carves. I vary my dive w/ the aggressiveness of the initial hook and the amount of double fronts.
Hook

[Zennie 0]

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did they find out how much time you were spending on DZ.com and said you owed it to them

Heh. I haven't seen any messages since that first one I got. Either they were experimenting with software or have it set at a given threshold. I've throttled the activity back quite a bit and haven't heard anything from my supervisor (who is way cool) so I think I'm OK.
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

[freeflyguy 0]

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If you find yourself low in a carve and let off, you now have to land in a different dirrection than you initially planned on or carve. This may be bad if the new direction has an obstacle I the way

I'll chime in on my method of carving. First, though, I don't disagree with you, this is just my plan.
In a normal set up, I am down faster than most of the others in the air. That is what the wingloading dictates. I set up for a 270. This allows people that are in traffic with me to assume I am doing a normal base leg. Whether or not I do a 270 to the left, or a 90 to the right, to final, it is inconsequential, prior to the speed turn, I am on a normal base leg. So, like you, those in the air with me are not wondering which way I will go. It will be to the peas.
The other thing I like about a 270. Before I commit to the turn, I will be able to see if I am low, or on. If I am low, than before I turn, I can easily change me plan and slow carve a 90 the opposite direction, and still land in the same place.
As far as the carve. Yah, it is a carve, but if you saw it on video, it would look fairly fast, some would call it a hook. So to define the difference is a bit tough. I do need to rock it up hard enough to make it dive. Too slow, and it don't work.
That's my plan.
J

[DanG 1]

I think in theory the straight dive is great, but not everyone jumps a canopy that can hold a double front approach with any speed. I jump a Stiletto, and don't get nearly the speed out of a double front on final as a do with a carve. On the other hand, eames jumps a Xaos and can pretty much go straight down in double fronts at the end of his dive.
I endeavor to land away from people as much as I can. The only time I go for the peas is the sunset load, but that's just to kick beer (Skydive Orange tradition). I also do what someone else said and leave myself an out. If carving left would have me going past the hangar, and carving right would give an out, I'll set up to carve right. Having an out is not only good if you misjudge the approach, but also nice if someone else gets in the way unexpectedly.
- Dan G