New Stiletto

[diver123 0]

So I just picked up a used kit for a very nice price... The main is a Stiletto 150. I was originally shopping for a Sabre2 150 as a main, but since the price was so nice I went ahead and made the purchase. Now, I've never flown an eliptical before so I was a little nervous yesterday on the way to altitude for the first time. I asked around for tips and things to watch for and felt comfortable so I took her up.
- Forward speed was a bit faster than the Sabre2 in full flight
- Turns were a hell of a lot more brisk than that of the Sabre2
- I personally felt the flare was stronger as well.
I only put 2 jumps on it cause it was late, but I plan on making at least 10 this weekend to test it out some more.
Here is my question: If my next purchase was going to be a Sabre2 150 ( a canopy that I've put about 30 jumps on to demo and felt very comfortable flying), do you think the Stiletto 150 should be considered in it's place or should I unload this to someone else and look for a Sabre2?
"pull high! It's lower than you think..."

[hobbes4star 0]

I think it is what you feel comfortable flying, if the stilletto freaks you out, than i would unload it but if you don't mind flying it keep it. i have a stilletto 135 and it has been the best canopy i have ever had. i love it the range is great, turns are nice and fast and openings have always been good.
why jump when you can fly

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Well, for what purpose? Just to get matching colors? Personally, if you don't have problems with that Stiletto you just bought, then keep it and jump the hell out of it. It all comes down to what you want a canopy to do. You were obviously keen on that Sabre 2 demo, but you also just stated that you liked the Stiletto. It's an individual event, so you decide which YOU like better.
Chuck
My webpage HERE

[grasshopper 0]

randy,
you know what I think. you are not very current, you don't have that many jumps, and are at a relatively high wing-loading. I think you should dump the stiletto and get something a little more forgiving of pilot error. you *might* be okay under the stiletto, but is that a chance you are willing to take?

[diver123 0]

So grasshopper, which do you have more of a problem with? The size or the fact that it's eliptical? I assure you that my safety is number 1, but HONESTLY there wasn't much difference in the way the Sabre2 flew versus the Stiletto... Do you think you'd still have a problem if I told you I just purchased a new Sabre2 150? Once again, I'm not getting on your case. I seriously appreciate your concern and the opinions of experienced canopy pilots carry more weight in my decision than my own so let me have it... !
"pull high! It's lower than you think..."

[grasshopper 0]

I have a problem with both the size and that it is a high performance elliptical. you are both downsizing and going to a more aggressive design at the same time, and not being very current while doing it. when everything goes well, the stiletto is easy enough to handle. but things don't always go well.
I am not trying to attack your decision, but I do disagree with it. I think you are pushing your luck and I don't want to see you get hurt. if you were jumping every week and pushing the limits of the 170, I would say go for it.
why fly a high performance canopy if you are not doing high performance landings. you WILL have high performance problems. it is not going to be an easy canopy to learn on without getting hurt.

[airdrew20012001 0]

If, as grasshopper says, you are a low timer who is not current AND you are agressively loading a stilletto 150 then I would say it is a recipe for disaster. Here's what I saw last summer: a fairly experienced and extremely current (100+ sydives a year) skydiver downsized from a square to a 1.3 loaded stilletto. As she was setting up to land she was coming in cross wind a bit and was using her toggles to get straightened out. She ended up making some seemingly benign small turns kind of low. She ended up picking up a bunch of speed and broke a femer and degloved both knees. Small canopies bite hard. It's not that I would worry about you so much when things go as planned but if you are not used to loaded canopies and not that current then if you get into a spot (cut off, wierd winds, lots of canopy traffice, narrow outs) then a highly loaded eliptical could cost you. As a friend said once, small canopies bite hard.
Drewfus McDoofus

[AndyMan 7]

Diver, I think the Stiletto CAN be appropriate, but only if you fly it at a reasonable wing loading. You haven't given any indication of what wing loading you fly the 170, or what the 150 will be.
I too am concerned that you're not only downsizing, but downsizing into a very agresive canopy. If you did one or the other I wouldn't be concerned, but both at the same time is risky, IMHO.
ICQ: 5578907
MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com
AIM: andrewdmetcalfe
Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999

[airdrew20012001 0]

Quote

ICQ: 5578907
MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com
AIM: andrewdmetcalfe
Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999

Got enough contact info on your sig line?
Drewfus McDoofus

[SHARKY 0]

Its not so much that you could not fly the stilleto but if you are loading it at all heavilly then you will need to perform high speed landings to get the required lift.
If you try to learn by flying your approach slowly you are going to either put yourself off the canopy tinking it will not give you the landings you expected or worse still get beat up by having heavy landings with no lift.
Its your call in the end but do listen to more experienced pilots because we have all got it wrong at one time or another on more docile canopies whilst learning.
At the moment you are trying to pass your driving test in a ferarri.
Stay Safe

[skycat 0]

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Its not so much that you could not fly the stilleto but if you are loading it at all heavilly then you will need to perform high speed landings to get the required lift.

So what is that magic number? I jump a crossfire 104 at 1.3 and I have a friend jumping a stiletto 97 at 1.4-1.5, neither of us need to do high performance/high speed landings to get lift. Both of us do strait in approaches and get plenty of lift from the canopies and even on no wind days at most take a few steps. It doesn't matter what kind of canopy you fly you should be able to land it strait in with out performing high speed manuvers.
Here are some better questions to ask. A) what is your WL going to be. B) Why were/are you uncurrent, is it cause you didn't have your own gear, meaning that will change now that you do and jumps are cheaper.

[Jimbo 0]

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Its not so much that you could not fly the stilleto but if you are loading it at all heavilly then you will need to perform high speed landings to get the required lift.

That's a misconception that could well get you killed. I've seen a lot of high-performance canopies jump at my DZ with loadings between 1.4 and well over 2 - I've also seen them landed with nothing more than a straight in approach, putting the jumper gently down on the ground.
You shouldn't have to perform a high speed approach on any modern canopy to get a decent landing.
-
Jim

[airdrew20012001 0]

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I've seen a lot of high-performance canopies jump at my DZ with loadings between 1.4 and well over 2 - I've also seen them landed with nothing more than a straight in approach, putting the jumper gently down on the ground.

Ok, I'll say it: what's the point? Why bother putting yourself in peril in the emergency situations as previosely mentioned if you are not going to use a high performance canopy for high performance purposes? If people want to land straight in, slwoly, standing up then why not get a triathalon, sabre2, or saphire? They are going to be safer and easier to manage if things get hairy yet still fun to fly if loaded properly.
Drewfus McDoofus

[Jimbo 0]

Drew - I think you missed my point.
Mine was quite simply a statement of fact, that it is not necessary to do a 'high performance' landing when flying a high performance parachute. I'm not going to speculate why people buy the parachutes they do and I am absolutely not saying that high performance landings are wrong, but I might suggest that someone might not want to perform a high performance landing under the following situations:
* landing off in a tight spot
* not having the altitude or room to perform a high performance landing
* first few jumps on a new parachute
* first few jumps on a high performance parachute
I'm sure there are more. It is still possible to land these parachutes gently with a conservative straight in approach.
-
Jim

[RichM 0]

I jump a Crossfire 119 at 1.5:1 and one of my first few jumps familiarisation routine was a straight in landing on 3/4 brakes, just to see how it behaves. I expected nothing at flare time and found myself hanging 5ft off the deck when it generated lift at the flare. I held the flare on and it very gently put me down. I agree that high speed landings are not a required part of high performance canopies.
Btw, I do this so that I know what to expect if I am ever forced to land like this.
Rich M

[Kris 0]

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If people want to land straight in, slwoly, standing up then why not get a triathalon, sabre2, or saphire?

I have a Stiletto loaded just under 1.4 that I do straight-in landings with 99.5% of the time.
Why did I buy it instead of another smaller Sabre? I hated the openings on the Sabre, the kind that made me miss two days of work recovering from.
Why didn't I get a Tri or a Spectre? I don't like the flight characteristics of 7-cell canopies.
Why didn't I get a Safire? I personally didn't like the way it handled in the air and I didn't like the control stroke on the flare.
My Stiletto gives me great, soft openings no matter how I stuff it in the bag, it's an absolute animal when it comes to turns (I'm the guy that was always first in line at the biggest, baddest roller coasters) and the bottom-end lift was exactly what I am looking for, especially on hot, no-wind days.
Do I aspire to do hook turns? Nope, maybe soft 90-degree carves in another year but that's about it.
Just because it's made for swooping doesn't mean that I have to drive it that way. I fly it for the other advantages I listed above.
Kris

[billvon 2,426]

>Why did I buy it instead of another smaller Sabre? I hated the openings on the
>Sabre, the kind that made me miss two days of work recovering from.
Sabre2's have radically different openings than the older Sabre, closer to a Spectre opening.
-bill von

[Kris 0]

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Sabre2's have radically different openings than the older Sabre, closer to a Spectre opening.

Yeah, but when I got it (my Stiletto), the Sabre2's had just come out and I like the idea of seeing a parachute design used in the field for a couple of years before I consider it.
Kris

[airdrew20012001 0]

Right, makes sense, I stand corrected. I guess my point with the original post is why buy a stilletto, which can generate a lot of speed with not a whole lot of input, if you aren't current are loading it highly? I am Ok with the idea of buying a high performance canopy and landing it straight in. This guy scares me though especailly when one of the posters knew him and told him not to jump it. Yikes, hopefully everything works out ok.
Drewfus McDoofus

[diver123 0]

Okay so here's the gist:
I made over a 100 jumps this past year, with 20 in the last month. There was a two month period from November till January where I didn't jump at all cause I sold my rig. I'm definitely not "living" out on the DZ, but I don't think I'm uncurrent. The stiletto is loaded at 1.4 as of this past Tuesday. *I do fully respect the opinions of anyone with experience*, but I'm just a little confused. None of the posters on this thread seemed to have anything to say about the demo jumps on the Sabre2 150 (which was loaded at 1.5 cause I was heavier then). The Sabre2 is a semi-eliptical design and was very responsive as well. I don't attempt high performance landings and may not ever, I just enjoy the performance up high. Both my landings on Tuesday were straight in and I didn't notice any lack of flare. In fact, I even screwed up my approach on the second jump. I ended up with a downwinder cause of a windshift just before I brought it in. This had me moving faster than I've ever been under canopy but I didn't panic. I flew the canopy until it was time to set my landing gear down and then ran off (very ungraciously mind you) the excess speed. I believe I've demonstrated a competency and an aptitude for learning when it comes to canopy flight. But, if after knowing this info it's still the general consensus that this wing is too hot, then I will trade it out for something less agressive.
"pull high! It's lower than you think..."

[skybytch 259]

It is, of course, your decision. Some things to think about before making up your mind - will you be doing 20+ jumps a month, every month, from now on? If not, do you think you'll be comfortable landing that canopy after taking two or three weeks off? Are you comfortable with the idea of landing that canopy at that loading in someone's backyard... or, knowing that you jump primarily at Elsinore, in the middle of the dirt bike track?
Personally I wouldn't recommend that wingloading on any canopy to someone with 150 jumps. But that's just me.
pull & flare,
lisa
[subliminal msg]My website Go Now[/subliminal msg]

[diver123 0]

You raise some very good points Lisa. I'm going to answer your questions honestly.
-will you be doing 20+ jumps a month, every month?
I cannot say either way, but I can speculate that it's very unlikely. I'd say more like 10/month would be more accurate.
-do you think you'll be comfortable landing that canopy after taking two or three weeks off? 2 or 3 weeks, yes but I'd be cautious on the first couple. Any more time than that, no I wouldn't be comfortable.
-would I be comfortable landing in someone's backyard? No. Would anyone? I doubt it. But I understand what you're getting at. I think it's clear, based on my answers and the consensus, that this may be a poor decision at this point. I'll work on trading this puppy out for something that's a little more tame.
However, I've still yet to see anyone comment on my question about the comparison between the Sabre2 150 vs. the Stiletto 150. Why are people so againts the stiletto but so accepting of the Sabre2 in the same size. Is there really that much difference between semi-eliptical (tapered) and eliptical? After jumping both I didn't notice a profound difference in flight/speed... That's not to say there wasn't any, or that I'm an authority, but it was not profound.
"pull high! It's lower than you think..."

[dayle 0]

I two had some raised eyebrows at my DZ when I downsized quickly to a Tomcat 135. (The price was just too good to pass up) I did hop & pop's at altitude twice to familiarize myself with the characteristics. I had no problems with my landings. (straight in) For the first couple however, I got a huge rush from the ground speed.
After about 50 jumps on it I switched to the stilletto. I love the canopy and have no problems with it. I too like to play up high and have never done a high performance landing. (unless you count the downwinder in 16mph winds lol, ouch) nor do I intend to for awhile.
The important thing was that both the 135's were only loaded at about 1.2, 1.3 max if I wore weight, and my instuctors approved of the size. However they did warn me it was right at the edge of my ablilities at the time and to take it easy.
If your insturctors don't think you are overloading it then I would go with their opinions of your flying abilities. If you are going against the advice of your instuctors or other experienced people at your DZ then you do so at your own peril.
As to currency, hah, it's good but it's not always possible. I'm in a northern climate and I refuse to jump in the cold. My jumping season runs from middle of May to Middle of October. I take my time at the begining of the year to get used to flying again. I do high hop & pops to get used to it. As long as you do this EACH time you are away from flying for awhile, I think you should be fine.
I have about the same number of jumps as you, so I may not know what I'm talking about either. lol
Dayle
CANT WAIT TO START JUMPING AGAIN!!!!!

[skybytch 259]

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Why are people so againts the stiletto but so accepting of the Sabre2 in the same size. Is there really that much difference between semi-eliptical (tapered) and eliptical?

imho the difference between the two is not the speed in flight - it's the responsiveness to toggle and riser input, and the fact that the elliptical (Stiletto) will be much more sensitive to weight shifts in the harness.
pull & flare,
lisa
[subliminal msg]My website Go Now[/subliminal msg]

[diver123 0]

Lisa, I totally understand what you're talking about and that's what I was expecting to find flying the stiletto. However, the steering lines were lengthened and I'm telling you it feels almost exactly the same as the Sabre2. I heard about how touchy elipticals were and thought that was going to be the case, but like I said, it was very similar to the other canopy. With regard to the harness sensitivity; I also tried messing with that up high to see what it felt like, but I couldn't get it to turn just by shifting my weight (leaning and lifting legs). Counter steer was another thing I was warned about, but once again nothing. If anything it felt a little like a car that was slightly out of allignment.
"pull high! It's lower than you think..."