RSL OR NO RSL ?

[Zennie 0]

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it's a "no brainer" c'mon guys

No it's not. It's "no brainers" that kill people -- that is, not using your brain.
This is the crux of what I was getting at in my initial response. You advocate RSLs for people and cite "safety" as the consideration... implying that those who do not advocate RSLs somehow are throwing safety to the wind with an airy wave of the hand.
My point is that safety is the sole reason that I detached mine (at 20 jumps, BTW). Not to be cool or reckless.
If she is the type of person who even thinks for a second she might brainlock and not pull the reserve handle, then I'd agree that an RSL may be for her. Otherwise, it's open to debate as to which is the "safe" or "smart" option.
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

[Jimbo 0]

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My point is that safety is the sole reason that I detached mine (at 20 jumps, BTW). Not to be cool or reckless.

What were you doing at 20 jumps that made you think it was in your best interests to disconnect the RSL? Were you jumping a main that was prone to spinning up? Jumping CReW? Jumping in excessively windy conditions?
Do you think that anyone at that level really has a deep enough understanding of our sport to make an informed decision about an RSL? I suspect that most people at that level either keep or disconnect it because they've been told to, either by their JM or by another jumper they respect. I certainly don't believe that an RSL should be mandatory, but I wonder if people aren't removing them just a little too soon or for reasons they don't understand.
I do wear an RSL and I've been through a malfunction. I pulled both handles, but I can see the value of the RSL. When I do CReW or move to a canopy that's more likely to put me on my back I'll remove it, but for now it's doing more good than harm.

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If she is the type of person who even thinks for a second she might brainlock and not pull the reserve handle, then I'd agree that an RSL may be for her. Otherwise, it's open to debate as to which is the "safe" or "smart" option.

If she's the type of person who thinks that even for a second she might brainlock and not pull the reserve handle then maybe she should reconsider jumping. An RSL isn't a guarantee, it's a backup device and it is prone to failure.
-
Jim

[kallend 1,648]

If you read the fatality reports in Parachutist every year (the latest issue has the 2001 reports) you will find without exception that there are more deaths that an RSL would likely have prevented than deaths attributable to RSLs.
Rationalize all you want, but unless your doing CRW or video or some other *really* good reason....

[skreamer 1]

Zennie, I have 197 jumps and choose to jump with an RSL. I choose this not because I doubt my ability to pull both handles, but because (due to local weather) I do a lot of hop n pops (exit altitudes from '2 000 feet and up). In other words I want my reserve out as quickly as is safely possible. Whether or not you feel an RSL does this safely is of course up to you.
Me, personally, I read the incident reports and made up my own mind. For every person killed by an RSL I think there were probably quite a few who died with silver in their hands and the reserve not fully deployed, not at line-stretch etc. Could an RSL have saved them by getting the reserve out quicker? maybe, maybe not, but I do know from my friends who have cutaway with RSLs, that by the time they pulled silver the reserve was already opening above them.
I get very worried when I read people with even less jumps than me saying "I'll cut away, wait until I am stable and then pull silver...". They might just spend the rest of their lives waiting to get stable....
For the record I will be jumping camera soon, will disconnect the RSL (obviously) but I will keep it on my rig (Hornet loaded at 1.2:1).
Will
"Don't die until you're dead"

[GrumpySmurf 0]

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If she is the type of person who even thinks for a second she might brainlock and not pull the reserve handle, then I'd agree that an RSL
may be for her.

Or her sweatshirt was tucked in super tight yet some how came loose during a sitfly and completely obscured the reserve handle, or she ends up colliding with someone in freefall and has just enough range of motion in one arm to pull the cutaway by can't get over to the reserve after a malfunction, or she ends up in a canopy collision below 1,000 and wants that Reserve out real quick after chopping.
More than one reason to have them, more than one reason to not.
The main reasons for not having one - Camera, CReW, High Winds and Loaded Ellipticals are all things relative newbies (especially non-current relative newbies) should be considering avoiding anyways until they build more experience, the RSL vs. No RSL should be the least of thier concerns.

[billvon 2,434]

>If she is the type of person who even thinks for a second she might brainlock and
> not pull the reserve handle, then I'd agree that an RSL may be for her.
Not to get into another pointless argument, but this is an attitude that, I think, kills people - the "safety equipment X, Y and Z are only for people who are no good." Tell Rick Horn that he needed an RSL because he brainlocks, or tell Glenn Bangs that he needed his RSL because he wasn't competent to pull his own reserve handle.
RSL's do a heck of a lot more than open your reserve if you forget to pull the reserve handle. They pull it if you can't _find_ the reserve handle due to a deformed harness, or damage, or harness motion, or jumpsuit problems, or harness distortion from a spinning mal - especially significant now that many people are jumping ringed harnesses, floppy jumpsuits and wingsuits. They also save the lives of people every year who cut away too low but want to "get stable" before they open their reserves.
-bill von

[Zennie 0]

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What were you doing at 20 jumps that made you think it was in your best interests to disconnect the RSL?

I consulted my instructor and several experienced jumpers, discussed pros and cons and made my decision accordingly.
I don't want to get into a huge argument about this either, my main intent was to counter Richard's implication that the only "smart" or "safe" option is to go with the RSL. I contend it's not that straightforward.
So in the interest of keeping this from devolving into yet another RSL debate, I humbly bow out....
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

[skydiverek 56]

It is easy to draw such conclusion, because not everybody wears an RSL. If everybody was wearing RSL, there would be more deaths caused by this system. E.G. if everybody deployed the reserve being not stable or cut away from an entanglement without disconecting it. So, if everybody WAS wearnig RSL, more deaths could have been attributed to it that saved by it.

[rgoper 0]

**I don't want to get into a huge argument about this either, my main intent was to counter Richard's implication that the only "smart" or "safe" option is to go with the RSL. I contend it's not that straightforward.**
Zennie:
cut it out, that wasn't intended for you, i was referring to freebird, i know your reading comprehensive abilities are higher than that. but the statement is straightforward, in the right application(s) by the way, just an observation, you sure do get fired up when this rsl debate thing comes up, feeling offensive? several good points have been made for reasons to fly with one, and the point was also made, and i know it's true (i researched it) rsl's saved lives last year, and they will again this year. on the other hand, points were also made in opposition to flying one, camera, highly loaded elipiticals, etc...zen, you keep making the staement "I Know What I'll Do If I Have To Cut Away, I'll Pull The Silver" good statement, but a bit over presumptious. you don't know if the inertia will let you get to that handle for 100% sure, do you? the answer to that question is a "no brainer" the fact is handles move during malfunctions, never in the same place twice, inertia and g-force from a high speed twisting mal can be overwhelming and cause dissorientation, and altitude awareness. you also said, "If I Don't Pull It, I Deserve What I Get" i can't believe you made that statement, i'd like to think you didn't mean it. remember, we've got newbies, and uncurrent jumpers listening to our words. wishing you the best....always
Richard
"Will This Be The Day?"
please refer to bill vons thread on "top 5 myths" in this same section, for a bit more insight on this subject, i didn't see it myself until after posting to zennie's response about my statement not being "straightforward"

[AndyMan 7]

I think LazerQ summed it up nicely - there's some people who will not wear seat-belts, will not use air-bags, and will not use an RSL. The anti-establishment, anti safety argument is not somthing I can related to. Some people just don't want that added safety level, I guess.
The only time I don't have an air bag when I drive is when I'm in a roll cage, and have a 5 point harness. I also have removed my RSL, but only because the kind of jumping I do makes it debatably innapropriate.
_Am
ICQ: 5578907
MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com
AIM: andrewdmetcalfe
Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999

[skybytch 259]

Remember. When the word "you" is used repeatedly in a post, it's getting into the realm of personal. Can we take the personal stuff to PM's please?
Thanks.
pull & flare,
lisa
"But our reality is in fact entire illusion!"
-Gregory Benford

[lazerq3 0]

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i'm sure we'll all agree that everyone that has ever jumped from a jumpship to do a sky dive was certain that "they could handle any emergency situation" it's this kind of "cockyniss" that's hurting and killing our folks right now

JESUS CHRIST PEOPLE!!!!! Now I'm cocky becuase I have the attitude that i can pull my handles!!!! WTF??? I suppose I'm cocky cause I dont have an AAD....Well if knowning my emergency proceedures, and being confident in my abilites to handle them is being "cocky"....Well them I guess I'm one COCKY MOTHER FUCKER!!!! And there are probalby 1000's of other "coky jumpers out there too!!! If Im not sure I can handle myself then I better get the fuck outa this sport!!! And if I do find myself in a situation that I cant handle ........GUESS WHAT......I GUESS I DIE!!!! It sounds harsh but thats the truth and its the risk I accept!!!!!!
jason

[rgoper 0]

jason:
are you sure your real name isn't William Earnest Badass? A.K.A. billy badass? do a reality check chief. be arrogant all you want, if you think for a second nothing can happen to you, think again, that's reality. being sure of yourself is one thing, but this "oh well" attitude, what's that? why don't we just load a 6 round revolver with one round, and spin the cylinder and pass it back and forth for a while?
Richard
"I Gaurentee You, I'll Outlive You"

[skybytch 259]

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are you sure your real name isn't William Earnest Badass? A.K.A. billy badass?

What part of "no personal attacks" is unclear? Does it really need to be explained again?
C'mon people. Take the flames to wreck dot. THEY ARE NOT WELCOME HERE.
This was a good thread. It's getting locked now.
pull & flare,
lisa
"But our reality is in fact entire illusion!"
-Gregory Benford

[lazerq3 0]

Richard....I want to be civil here but listen to what you said in your early post.....That I had a cocky attitude becuase I believe I will be able to deal with an emer situation....what would you like me to say..that I dont feel comfortable in an emergency and that I should have an RSL??? thats the worst reason to get one .....IT IS A BACK UP !!! Basically your saying that everyone that doesnt use a RSL has a cocky attitude!!!! I'm not ANTI RSL...I dont think they are bad to have,, if you want to have one GREAT ...I choose not too...BIG DEAL...But now I'm cocky because if that???? I dont know if your ttryin to push buttons or what but geeze!!!!!! Just becuase you think its right to have one DOESNT MEAN YOUR RIGHT!!! thats your opinion and I am cool with that...why can tyou be cool wiht mine!!!
By the way I'm soory about my last post but Damn!!! I mean I get picked on at the DZ For being SO anal about how I pack, About how I have to grab my handles at least 3 times before I leave the plane,,, and about how picky I am about keeping my gear in great condition.....but I come here...mention I dont use An RSL and know I'm "Billy BadASS"!!! WTF? Ive been on this site for a couple years now and people that have been here with me know (or at least I hope kknow) that I do not come off as a cocky or arrogant skydiver who thinks hes a badass!!!
jason

[billvon 2,434]

>Now I'm cocky becuase I have the attitude that i can pull my handles!!!!
Well, no. You're being a little cocky because you don't think that other people's experience that sometimes you _can't_ pull your handles is valid.
To put this in perspective: do you know how to pack? If so, why do you use a reserve? I've packed something like 2000 mains, and I've had 2 mals on my pack jobs. That's a 99.9% success rate, but I'd still be dead if I had a "Hell yes I know how to pack! I don't need no reserve!" attitude.
>And there are probalby 1000's of other "coky jumpers out there too!!!
There were. Not to be blunt, but many of them are now dead. I knew a few of them. The odds of them being dead seem proportional to how cocky they were, and how quick they were to ignore people who tried to give them advice.
>If Im not sure I can handle myself then I better get the fuck outa this sport!!!
While that's very true, 90% of survival is knowing how to avoid getting into situations where you _need_ to handle yourself in the first place. For those other 10%, AAD's and RSL's can help you even when the shit _really_ hits the fan.
-------------------------------------------------
rgoper wrote:
>are you sure your real name isn't William Earnest Badass?
Yeah, he's being cocky, but please don't start with the personal attacks.
-bill von

[alan 1]

Nice going guys, you have managed to take a subject that deserves healthy discussion and one worth repeating every now and then, and turned it into a flame war. It doesn't matter "who started it". FYI, in addition to what bill von has posted, I'll add that an RSL is to help deploy the reserve in the event of a low cutaway. I don't necessarily buy into the arguement that if you have a highly loaded elliptical, you shouldn't use it. Taking the time to get stable is fine IF you have the time. You may not. What if you find yourself low due to a hard cutaway from a violently spinning mal under an 89 VX @2.4? Do you still want to "get stable" before deploying the reserve? Hint: There is a good chance I wouldn't be writing this if I had bought into the highly loaded elliptical arguement. Another hint: Had the other riser failed rather than the one that did, that RSL that may have saved me, may have killed me. Yes, I pulled silver, but the RSL beat me to it. I was on my back and spinning and my Raven-M 135 deployed on heading. I was lucky, I landed in a very muddy bean field. I stuck in the mud up to my knees like a lawn dart. In my mind, the time the RSL saved over my pulling saved me from injury, and if I had been over hard ground or a runway I think I may very well have died from the impact.....with a fully deployed reserve over my head.
Just a few more things to think about when we each make our own personal choices.......hopefully without being judgemental of others.
One more flame and the lock goes on.
alan

[sangiro 4]

Let me add a quick posthumous comment here. This is not directed at anyone specifically, it just seems like the appropriate thread to bring it up.
The topical forums is for constructive discussions relating to the topics at hand. There's a certain amount of BS that I'll tolerate in the Talk Back forum - not here though. People come to these forums to learn and to teach, not to wade through this kind of gibberish.
Please respect that or I'll simply remove your writing privileges from all the topical boards. That way you can hang out in Talk Back, read what others have to say in the topical boards but not spoil it for the rest of us over here.
I'm not happy with threads being locked on here as some really good conversations get shut down by doing that. For that reason I'll take action that will target you individually and leave the threads open for others to post to.
Keep it real! Safe swoops
Sangiro