Cobalt as first canopy

[beckrj 0]

oops

[PhreeZone 15]

Umm.... Look around here and do a search for "Cobalt".
What DZ are you at thats lets someone with 72 jumps and is over 200 out the door jump a 150? Thats a little aggressive this early in your career.
The Cobalt is a great canopy. I have one. Would i recommed it to someone with 72 jumps and is planning on loading it close to1.4:1? Hell no! I'm loading mine at 1.25:1 at 240ish jumps and its a fun canopy. After another 100 jumps, I'll probally get a 135.
The Cobalt is similar in proformance to a Crossfire or Stiletto. Look at Icarus's website to see how they rate the different wingloadings. 1.4 is not for the faint of heart on an Elliptical.
You can't get PD to sell you a new Stiletto if you have less then 500 jumps. Keep that in mind....
Get a Sabre2 first (or even a used Sabre), then when your ready for a full elliptical come and look at the Cobalt again.
A rainy day at the DZ is better then a Sunny day at work

[diver123 0]

Dude, I'm all for the idea that you can't exactly put every single individual in a category to determine ability just by referencing the number of jumps they have, but come on...
I'm definitely not the end all when it comes to advice on this matter, but it seems to me that in a situation as extreme as this you may want to consider using some self control/good judgement??? I consider my aptitude for this sport to be very high and I'm a quick learner, but that doesn't mean I should go hop on a stilleto at 2.0 just because I think I could land it in a best case scenario... I'm 230 out the door and I'm on a Sabre 170. I'm sure it's nothing compared to those hi perf. wings, but on a no wind day in the warm weather...it's fun enough and challenges even my cocky attitude.
"pull high! It's lower than you think..."

[Albatross 0]

Totally backing PhreeZone on this one. I have 170 jumps and will have 220+ by the end of the month and am dying to get my hands on a Cobalt but not yet. It is too much canopy for a new jumper. You will be fine in the calm air even in wind, but landing in turbulence and traffic might cause a problem because it is very responsive. Unless you can nail a landing on your current canopy in a 8-10 mph downwind every time, stay where you are. Ihave seen too many people rush to down size or move to higher preformance canopies or just get lazy and break bones, LOTS OF THEM. Be conservative when you change canopies.
God bless us and God Bless America
Albatross

[skybytch 259]

I wouldn't recommend any elliptical at 1.4 to anyone with 72 jumps, period. In my opinion, the canopy you're flying right now is loaded way excessive for your experience level. Before you go with a more aggressive canopy type on top of that, consider a few things -
Can you land the canopy you have now standing up every time, into the wind, crosswind, downwind, into someone's backyard cuz Joe Bob can't spot or there was an aircraft emergency and you had to exit miles from the dz?
Can you land the canopy you have now accurately - like onto a beer can sized target every time?
Do you fly with front risers or only with your toggles? Know how to do and have you practiced braked (or "flat") turns?
Are there highly experienced swoop pilots on your dz to give you advice or can you get to a place that offers advanced canopy control training/coaching?
Do you have good medical insurance and can you afford the time off work to recover when you make a mistake on approach and break yourself, which if you ask any really good swoop pilot is not a matter of if, but a matter of when and how bad?
How big is the dz you primarily jump at? Are you used to 4 or 5 canopies in the air with you at once or 20+? If you're jumping mainly at a one or two Cessna dz, are you going to be able to handle flying that canopy sharing the air and landing area with an Otter load or two?
But, then again, I'm just an old fashioned canopy nazi who isn't in touch with reality....
pull and flare,
lisa

[beckrj 0]

Thanks for all the honest responses. I agree with what you all have said. I did however read in the advertisement for the Cobalt in Parachutist magazine that it is suitable for beginners and those who are considering a Sabre. That is why I had to ask the question. Perhaps Atair shouldn't be targeting beginners for their eliptical canopies. Just a thought. I will stick to my Sabre2.

[PhreeZone 15]

The Cobalt is fine if used as a conventional beginnier canopy loaded at 1:1 or 1.1:1. But loading ANY canopy higher then that at your skill level is more then just stupid, its down right dangerous to everyone in the air with you at the same time. Learn the basic skills needed to survive before you go to the advanced swoops.
Exactly WHY are you loading a canopy that high at that few jumps?
I've been taking lessons from the SkyBytch
A rainy day at the DZ is better then a Sunny day at work

[beckrj 0]

It has just been the natural progression at my DZ. I would never dream of going smaller than a 150 for a long long time. It has been told to me that a 150 Sabre2 would be a good canopy that I can have fun with for many jumps while also learning as much as I can. I would hope that my DZ would not let me rent gear that would be dangerous and I do trust them. I hope I am not being misled in any way as I am new to this sport. I feel pretty safe at the moment with my current situation. Once again I appreciate the advice.

[PhreeZone 15]

I hate to say it but it sounds like the DZ is renting you gear that is dangerous. There is NO way I would ever consider letting a sub-100 jump jumper rent anything near that wing loading.
At ~100 jumps a 1.2 wing loading should be the upper end of the range you are going for. Thats something like a 170 or a 160 canopy. Sure it might feel like a dog compaired to the 150, but you'll learn lots more on it then the 150. I see you jump at Elsinore, If you get the chance, sign up for some canopy coaching from Lugi, or any of the guys out there. See what they recommend. I'm willing to bet that unless everyone of your jumps have been with Clint coaching, they are not going to say a 150.
A rainy day at the DZ is better then a Sunny day at work

[beckrj 0]

Thanks, I will definately look into it. The 170 is not slow by any means so I know what you are talking about. It is great fun and to be honest I am perfectly happy staying with it. Canopy coaching is definately something I want to do in the near future. It is not that I am in a hurry to downsize it is just that no one has told me otherwise regarding moving to 150 and that is why this forum is great.

[aufreefly 0]

I think everyone is overlooking the fact that nobody knows the skill level that he is at. Canopy size is determined by jumper skill (being able to sink into a tight spot, turn low safely, or downwind a landing) and he might be an excellent canopy pilot. I have 250 jumps and can outfly many people with over 800 or even a thousand. I weigh 205 with no gear and jump a cobalt 135. People are suprised to see how I land for my number of jumps, ask clay. I got a cobalt 150 at about 90 jumps and have never come close to hurting myself or endangering others. I guess if the people at his dz feel that he can fly a 150 then maybe a 150 cobalt is a good option for him. Cobalts, in my opinion, have much more bottom end than a stilleto or definantly a saphire. I would recommend the cobalt and wheather it is a 150 or a 170 is a personal choice. Ask yourself if you feel comfortable under a 150. Just my .02
michael hunt (yes, that is my real name...and i've heard them all)

[johnny1488 1]

I would consider myself a good canopy pilot. I have 130 jumps. I fly with the risers, front and rear a whole lot. I work on flare, stall and braked turns on every jump. Even if its a point in the grass I work on accuracy when surrounding conditions permit. I am 200 w/o gear and feel great an my new safire 209. On reason I wont go smaller is the change would force me to a smaller reserve and I am already very wary of having a 176 f-111 7 cell over my head in a bad situation. I see people with more jumps just focusing on freefall because the can land standing up. I ask do you use your front risers a lot and they say what for? Its not just hook turns that are canopy killers anymore. Collisions and hp malfunctions are taking back the top spot in that incident report. Maybe this person is that good to be considering that sort of canopy. But its my experience that a dz will push certain gear and play the odds that they will be ok, or just say, "hey a jumper has to make up their own mind and look out for #1" What reserve would be in that rig that holds a 150sq' canopy? How slow can you land it? Fly what you want but remember Its not just yourself that you could be putting in harms way. Its everyone in the air with you at any given moment. How many jumps do you plan on making in your career? There will always be time to move down and have more fun. If your current canopy isnt fast enough try to make it fly faster, or slower, whatever. Explore all aspects of the wing you are on. Not just 20 jumps and say " I'm ready for more than this."None of this is meant to insult just to provoke thought.
Johnny

[PhreeZone 15]

I happen to know that his DZ is one of the dealerships for the Cobalt right now. So it would be logical to assume that he's been pressured to get one from the gear store since they are a dealership. I had talked to the Gear-Store at Elsinore when I was going to order a new Cobalt and they mentioned a lot of thier staff had converted since they liked them so much.
A rainy day at the DZ is better then a Sunny day at work

[Spectrejumper 0]

>>I am 200 w/o gear and feel great an my new safire 209. On reason I wont go smaller is the change would force me to a smaller reserve and I am already very wary of having a 176 f-111 7 cell over my head in a bad situation. <<
What kind of container do you have? I got my Javelin J5 because I could put a Dash M 249 reserve in it. It's been the home to my Spectre 210 since it was new, and will soon be housing a Sabre 2 190. I just checked Sunpath's website, and it looks like you could probably fit a 218 Dash M in a container that will hold a PD 176. Just a thought.
Now in regards to the guy with 72 jumps, all I'm gonna say is this: the guy in the fatality reports in the most recent Parachutist who had 70 jumps and went in under a Stiletto 120 loaded at 1.375:1 probably thought that was a good canopy for him too, until that last jump.
Mike D-23312
"It's such a shame to spend your time away like this...existing." JMH

[johnny1488 1]

I've been told that dm218 is more like 200. either way I made my choice of pd's reserve. The 176 is the one for my j4. And if I ever go to a j3 the 176 will fit there too(tight). I also wouldnt want 2 canopies of extremly different sizes. Anything is acceptable as long as the choices being made are logical and thought out ones rather than" make that sale, gete me in the air" rash decisions.
Johnny

[beckrj 0]

wow. That report just made my stomach turn. All y'all have done a superb job of drilling home the fact that one should never overestimate their skill level. Learn to fly one canopy well before moving to the next smaller one. Just because you can land a canopy doesn't mean you can go to the next smaller one. I always knew this but was merely thinking out aloud in response to the ad for the cobalt in the magazine. I know my thresholds and I know what I can or cannot do. Why push it I ask? This also has nothing to do with my DZ pushing more dangerous gear on me. THey know how well I fly at the moment and they would never let me jump a stiletto 120. They would probably ground someone for even thinking that.

[johnny1488 1]

I'm not sure what the ad for the cobalt says but Im pretty sure their selling point for low timers was that a lightly loaded cobalt makes a good first canopy. If they made a cobalt around210 or 190 it would probably fit their criteria. But a wing of that design at your loading will probably not give you much of a learning curve or room for error. Good luck in whatever choice you make and be safe.
Johnny

[Aviatrr 0]

Quote

This also has nothing to do with my DZ pushing more dangerous gear on me. THey know how well I fly at the moment and they would never let me jump a stiletto 120.

If a DZ will let you jump an elliptical at a 1.4 loading with less than 100 jumps.....they are negligent, plain and simple.. If you really are jumping a canopy like that, at that loading, I'd be willing to bet the DZO, S&TA, and most of the Instructors don't know what your jumping, or your experience level..
And the point that somebody made about the Stiletto was not regarding the size of the canopy - but the wing loading.. Your wing loading is higher than the guy that was killed on the Stiletto..
The Cobalt is certainly not as twitchy as a Stiletto, but it's still definitely a high performance canopy.. Don't fool yourself there..
Mike

[aufreefly 0]

forgot to mention that I used to weigh 185 but my point is that you should just find a good canopy pilot at your DZ and ask as many questions as you can. (the best canopy pilot may not be the guy under the smallest canopy, I know people who fly 120 stilleto's who can outswoop almost all of the people I see under sub-100 extremes)
michael hunt (yes, that is my real name...and i've heard them all)

[cobaltdan 0]

everything here has been posted before and responded to by me and others.
please disregard sterotypical misconceived comments about 'all' ellipticals being death machines for beginners and do a back search for more information.
the statements in our adds are quotes from people like the head uspa safetey officer and other very respected instructors. they have all jumped cobalts at the loadings they are recommending to begineers.
they are not getting canopies for free and certainly would not reccomend the cobalt to their students and the world, if they did not fully believe in the canopy and fully believe it was safe !
cobalts are not stilletos.
wing loadings are directly related to a canopies efficiency. cobalts have the highest measured glide ratio of any skydiving canopy. they will be loaded slightly heavier to produce the same foward speed.
recommended wing loading for on a cobalt for beginers is 1.2-1.4 slightly heavier than the recommended wing loading for the same skill level on a sabre.
atair has a 7 year track record with this canopy and beginners !
the space canopy is identical in planform and airfoil. thousands of canopies to
thousands of students !
please learn about available canopies as well as basic science behind your ram air wings.
it is the prevelent lack of knowledge and ignorant stereotype opinions that have most manufacturers
catering with false information, ie. lying about canopy square footage and calling elliptical canopy designs tapered, slightly tapered, etc...
if you like call me at the office and i will be glad to discuss this.
sincerely,
dan
atair
www.extremefly.com
718-923-1709

[jaybird 0]

ok, here comes the lashings.
@ 55 jumps i got my crossfire 149, loaded at 1.3
@290 i fly a crossfire 109 @ 1.75 wing loading
should everyone. hell no. but at the same time lets not say that not a single person should. just know the risks you are taking before flying one of these.
jaybird
ok fire is lit.

[freeflir29 0]

Dan......you have such patience.....
Que hermana pinocha gratis?-Clay

[GrumpySmurf 0]

Safires have a bottom end?
I though the idea of flaring a safire was to give you something to do other than looking at the ground, thinking, "Oh crap, this is gonna hurt!" ;)

[Watcher 0]

I dont think thats bad. A higher wing loading does not always mean bad for someone with lower number of jumps. About 4 months ago I jumped a 135 Spectre at about 80 jumps, loaded at 1.4:1 thought it was an easy canopy, yet got quite yelled at cause people who were not jumping 5-8 jumps every single weekend the entire summer saw me under a different canopy, even though they did not ask how well could i flare it, how high did you pull to find stall points, turning speeds, decent rates, etx all they cared about was that i had 80 jumps on a 135 Spectre.
I am now jumping a Nitron 120 at a loading of 1.55:1, which IMHO is a superior canopy to the Stiletto, i demod a stiletto and was more impressed with the Nitron much much more flare power and a better glide ratio. But i also pulled at 10 grand on about 5 jumps to find out how the canopy really flew, and knew how to land it and sink it and flat turn, i would feel comfortable landing in a fenced in back yard with a pool back there.
The difference i think is while everyone else finished thier dives at 4 grand then tracked and dumped and floated down. I was just getting into my dive, i was learning everything i could about the canopy i was flying on every jump, i also read all the different literature on PD and other manufacturers sites to make sure i understood everything about canopy flight.
Jump numbers are not a good way to judge anything, if you dont know what that person knows and understands and has activily tried.
A great source is Brian Germains Manual http://www.bigairsportz.com
Jonathan Bartlett
[email protected]
C-31802

[ramon 0]

Yeah,
what they said..
buy used stuff then when you want to have fun buy one and load it up a little more.
bloo skies
ramon