Unruly Slider

[freeflir29 0]

OK...I have a PD 190 9 cell F-111. The standard slider is really starting to bug me. It has two things wrong with it. Nothing to collapse it and the grommets are so small that I can't get it over my toggles in flight. I'm sure sewing velcro on will solve the first problem but would it be easier to just replace the whole slider than go through replacing the grommets and sewing on velcro? What's the SME's opinions on this?
"There once was a man named Enis....."-Krusty the Clown
Clay

[tlshealy 0]

Making your slider collapsible isn't that hard either with velcro or draw strings, but the grommets are a pain unless you have all the right equipment, it's hard to get the old ones off without damage and you need the setting dies. I don't know what a rigger would charge to do it. Aerodyne Research has collapsible sliders for $60.00 , and of course PD sliders are much more, Para-gear shows them at $99.50. I'd be careful of putting anything other than a PD slider on it, you might be in for a suprise opening, or lack there of. Maybe ask Lisa, or Dan about his new sliders.
Blue Skies
Tad

[lazerq3 0]

I fly a PD170 f-111 main and the slider sounded like a damn harlley flappin in the air. Thers is a guy at our DZ that I had modify it to a double pull string collapsible and now its quit as can be. All I have to do is grab both strings , give it a pull and its done. Cost 20$ for the mod!!! So chek at DZ for someone to do that. I know people with velcro and they dont like it. Not to say it isnt good I just know the people I've talked to that have it say its a pain to grab and rap around and then of coarse its velcro so how long will that last. Just my .02
jason

[apoil 0]

there's a reason your canopy doesn't have a collapsible slider.. It's not a performance canopy and wont really benefit from it.
Consider moving on to a Sabre(2) or Safire in the 190/170 size. These will perform very differently from what you are used to, and will begin to be in the performace range where it actually makes a difference.
Now... I'm not usually one to steer people into canopies beyond their experience level, but I think you've mentioned that you just crossed 100 jumps.
I may get flamed, and there will surely be other opinions, but
I say get off F111 and start flying Zero P.. At the moment, you are only picking up bad habits that you will have to unlearn when you start landing your ZeroP. As long as you keep the wing loading under 1.2 and don't go extreme elliptical, you should be fairly safe.

[lazerq3 0]

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there's a reason your canopy doesn't have a collapsible slider.. It's not a performance canopy and wont really benefit from it.

I completely agree. I know I had mine changed to a collapsible just for the noise factor. NOw its a lot more quite and peaceful under canopy. Sometimes I can even hear the birds singing. Plus for 20$ it was worth it!!
jason
P.S and whats these bad hablits your talking about. Now you got me all worried about my F-111 and I wont be able to afford a ZP for at least a year or two!!!!

[Kelly 0]

lemme just say this, with no background info.
i recently watched a jumper with over 1,200 skydives, thats team visits many dropzones/ makes hundreds of public appearences, biff in a landing. nothing hard, hes just finally flying a zero-p canopy and hasnt quite gotten it down right.
just food for thought....
"i can not attest to what i did, just what i remember...."
~me, after one too many

[skybytch 259]

Any rigger that's handy with a sewing machine can add kill lines to your slider. The velcro wrap method works, but it's a bit of a pain when you're trying to fly and collapse the slider all at the same time... which is why the kill lines were introduced. For the grommets, find a rigger with the tools and experience; it can be done and shouldn't be too expensive.
If you're going to replace it with a brand new slider, I highly recommend getting one from PD over one from any other source. Expensive, yes, but you'll get the same slider that would come with a brand new PD190, the right size, shape, etc., so your canopy should continue to open and fly like it's supposed to.

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I say get off F111 and start flying Zero P.

While I agree with you in theory, in reality some jumpers just can't afford to purchase a used zp main, much less a brand new one. F111 canopies are excellent choices for those jumpers. They can be picked up used for cheap - I see them all the time for US$500 or less in good to excellent condition. They open and fly okay, can be flat packed (which, imho, is easier to learn than pro packing), are easier to pack than zp due to the less slippery fabric, are less sensitive to pilot error than the higher performance zp canopies and there's thousands of them out there.
Also, remember that just as not every jumper wants to fly an elliptical (Stiletto, Crossfire, Cobalt, etc.), not every jumper wants to fly a zp canopy. While I feel that the more conservative zp mains (Spectre, Triathlon, Sabre, Hornet) are going to land way better than an equivalent F111 main, some jumpers are uncomfortable with the additional speed that helps to create that better landing. Others don't want to deal with packing zp and will trade performance for a faster, easier pack job. Still others have no desire to learn the swoopy landing at all; they just want to have fun in freefall, then land soft and walk back to the packing area. An F111 canopy might be perfect for those jumpers.

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At the moment, you are only picking up bad habits that you will have to unlearn when you start landing your ZeroP.

Disagree with you here. There's a learning curve to landing any new canopy - F111, zp, elliptical, crossbraced, whatever. You can pick up as many bad habits under a Sabre as you can under a PD190.
pull and flare,
lisa

[lazerq3 0]

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They can be picked up used for cheap - I see them all the time for US$500 or less in good to excellent condition.

Thanxs lisa for recognizing us poor foke skydivers. I got my PD170 with only 150 jumps for 400$. Its not that I dont want to learn or fly ZP its just this is my first year in the sport so I've already put out thousands of $$$ to get started and just cant afford a new main period be it ZP or F-111. Plus right now I load mine at about 1.1 and still feel I'm coming in fast on a no wind day so I'm in no hurry to downsize. Hell I get a kick outa doing a 15ft surf let alone a 100ft surf.
jason

[riggerrob 613]

Take a close look at your slider grommets. These days most sliders are made with #8 brass grommets or stainless steel grommets almost as big. Larger grommets are difficult to find at DZs.
What size are your connector links?
You need to install #3.5 Maillon Rapide links or slinks if you wnat to be able to pull your slider down behind your head.
It also helps if you have 1 inch wide risers made of Type 17 webbing.
Other minor points include toggle hoods to make it easier to pull the slider down past the toggles.
If you end up installing new risers, also pay attention to riser length. I am pretty tall (6 foot), so 24" risers work well for me, but shorter people need risers as short as 19" so they can grab their sliders.

[apoil 0]

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Also, remember that just as not every jumper wants to fly an elliptical (Stiletto, Crossfire, Cobalt, etc.), not every jumper wants to fly a zp canopy.

agreed here, but remember who asked the question!
Clay doesn't strike me as the sort who would prefer a docile canopy for anything other than economic reasons.

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In reply to:
At the moment, you are only picking up bad habits that you will have to unlearn when you start landing your ZeroP.
Disagree with you here. There's a learning curve to landing any new canopy - F111, zp, elliptical, crossbraced, whatever.

I take this back.. I never should have said "bad habits". There's nothing bad about them. What I meant to say is that ZeroP requires a different flare technique that will harder to pick up the longer you've been flying F111. And the skill of being able to finesse an F111 landing doesn't really transfer to ZeroP.
So, the point is, if you see yourself being under ZeroP eventually (and most skydivers do fall into that category), then I say transition as soon as you can afford it.

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You can pick up as many bad habits under a Sabre as you can under a PD190.

Hey... I resemble that remark!
A short list of things I did under my Sabre190:
Landed in a tree.
Landed in a stream.
Landed in a patch of banana trees in Indonesa
Landed downwind after heavy rainfall
Packed a flip-thru and had to chop it.
...

[freeflir29 0]

Hmmm....No I'm not trying to be particularly conservative. I just happened to get a complete rig with a PD 190 (which was the smallest main I had jumped at the time) with less than 100 jumps for $1000 from a friend. Couldn't pass that deal up. Now, would someone explain this difference in ZP landings. I have yet to fly one but from all the sources I have learned from it seems that ZP would be easier to fly. With my PD 190 loaded at 1.3 I have to induce some speed I.E. risers to have anything resembling a decent landing on no wind days. I just don't have shit for flair power if I don't get on the risers. Last weekend was a great example. I ended up getting a lightly loaded student canopy in my way in the landing pattern.(I know...my fault) I had to wait too long on base leg for this guy to land. Was way too low for risers and had to toggle turn in. I ended up doing the 15ft foot slide surf and dropping one hand (which got all scuffed up with no gloves) to keep from busting my butt. Without the extra speed I didn't have the flare power to shut the canopy down. On the other side of the coin during my 360 hook I was going Lord knows how fast during the swoop but had plenty of power to shut the canopy down at the end. Now, it seems to me that ZP would just be easier to land in the slow situation and give a longer more controlled surf in a fast situation. Am I wrong?
"There once was a man named Enis....."-Krusty the Clown
Clay

[DBTECH 0]

When PD first started offering stainless grommets, there were two sizes--20 MM & 25 MM.
20 MM will not pull down over TY 17 risers--after many complainants, PD stopped offering the smaller stainless grommets--maybe you have the 20 MM grommets?
Dave Brownell

[freeflir29 0]

"maybe you have the 20 MM grommets?"
Not really sure on the size. The front risers are no problem. I can pull those down as far as I want. Although it does curl the riser material in a U shape. On the rear it's just too tight to get them over the brakes and all the riser material. Hell, I probably just need to quit screwing around and get a new canopy. I think I have just about pushed this one to all the operational envelopes as far as hooking and surfing are concerned. I was just trying to take it easy with canopy selection until I got more experience. (Smile on me Lisa!) I think I may be ready for the dreaded Cobalt or Diablo now.....Dammitt....the learning curve goes back near the bottom again!


"There once was a man named Enis....."-Krusty the Clown
Clay

[DBTECH 0]

You are saying that the webbing is--your quote- "Although it does curl the riser material in a U shape."
If in fact you have 1" wide TY17 mini risers, this tells my that you may indeed have the smaller
(20 MM) stainless grommets, as 25 MM grommets are 1" ID! (20 MM stainless grommets are 0.8" ID.
Do a measurement.
Dave Brownell

[PhreeZone 15]

Hey Cly, you can pick up a used Sabre or clone for about 650 -850 on a set of mini risers. You might want to look at that option of the first half of the season while you are learning ZP landings instead of having to learn ZP landings and elliptical stuff at the same time.
As far as the Slider... just get a new one. That way you get the right one and the slider will work properly.
A rainy day at the DZ is better then a Sunny day at work

[johnny1488 1]

I agree with picking up an f-111 for a first canopy, its what I did, easy packing and low cost factor. But I am moving up. I bought it on dz.com so it will soon be for sale on dz.com. (is this a plug?)
Its a pd 210 in great shape.
Look for it soon in a classified section near you!!!
Johnny

[Aviatrr 0]

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Now, it seems to me that ZP would just be easier to land in the slow situation and give a longer more controlled surf in a fast situation. Am I wrong?

Well, if you want to find out for yourself, you can jump my Hornet 190 at Atlanta Freeflight.. I'm trying to sell it, so I'm gonna bring it up there on risers and everything(large 3 rings on those risers) - and you're more than welcome to jump it a few times......as long as it doesn't interfere with somebody that may actually want to buy it..
Mike

[skybytch 259]

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With my PD 190 loaded at 1.3 I have to induce some speed I.E. risers to have anything resembling a decent landing on no wind days. I just don't have shit for flair power if I don't get on the risers.

I think part of your flare power problem is your loading; another part could be canopy age. F111 canopy performance drops off sharply above about 1.1. Flare power is also reduced the more jumps that are on the canopy.
Have you tried taking a wrap on the toggles? A friend of mine with a way-worn out, slightly overloaded all F111 canopy landed with two wraps everytime, just to be sure of having enough flare to stand up the landing.

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Now, it seems to me that ZP would just be easier to land in the slow situation and give a longer more controlled surf in a fast situation.

In my experience, you're right. Not that I've pulled off many long or controlled surfs... but under a lightly loaded conservative zp canopy I land way better in any conditions than I ever did under F111.
pull and flare,
lisa

[freeflir29 0]

"Have you tried taking a wrap on the toggles?"
Lord no! I had to lengthen them about 2 1/2 to 3 inches to get it to land without falling out of the sky. You're probably right about the loading. I just need to go ahead and get something ZP. The canopy only has about 100 jumps on it now so I doubt it is very worn.
Mike- Thanks for the offer but ZP 190 would be a little "large" for me. I'm looking for 170 or smaller, maybe even 150, in a ZP model. I just don't want to get so small that I have to surf 40 ft in order to land. Never know when you might land off. Not a problem around SD Atlanta but let's take Raeford, NC. Some out's can be pretty tight there. Or Cedartown, GA (Not that I'll be jumping there but) 0 outs! I want to land in one piece....wherever that may be.
"There once was a man named Enis....."-Krusty the Clown
Clay

[apoil 0]

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Hmmm....No I'm not trying to be particularly conservative. I just happened to get a complete rig with a PD 190 (which was the smallest main I had jumped at the time) with less than 100 jumps for $1000 from a friend. Couldn't pass that deal up. Now, would someone explain this difference in ZP landings. I have yet to fly one but from all the sources I have learned from it seems that ZP would be easier to fly. With my PD 190 loaded at 1.3

Yes, a sabre would be much easier to fly and land at that wind loading. The consequences of a mistake will be somewhat harder and you'll have to react quickly but more carefully in the event of a problem (impending collision, obtacle, etc).
My point is that if you get used to the landing technique of an F111 you'll have to relearn it for ZP, but if you are already risering to pick up speed, you are probably closer to the technique you would eventually need to arrive at.
1.3 on a 190? Damn... you fat bastard.
Start with a zp 170, or at least demo the hell out of them before you go zp 150.

[michael 9]

>there's a reason your canopy doesn't have a collapsible >slider.. It's not a performance canopy and wont really benefit >from it.
Yeah. A 747 isnt a jet fighter either, but Boeing still invest a considerable amount refining the design. Anything that minimises drag is beneficial.
>Consider moving on to a Sabre(2) or Safire in the 190/170 >size. These will perform very differently from what you are >used to, and will begin to be in the performace range where >it actually makes a difference.
Hmm..yeah your slider isnt collapsable, so instead of spending twenty bucks and having some drawstrings installed I recommend you go and buy another canopy, despite not knowing you, your skill level, or your proficiency in the air. Great idea.

[Merrick 0]

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"F111 canopy performance drops off sharply above about 1.1."

Yeah clay, I've heard this too... I've actually heard that it's even getting a little dangerous to load them above 1.1:1, especially if it's an older f111 canopy.
Now, I know you're a future Pro Blade champion with all the swooping & what not.... I don't want to be labeled as the canopy Nazi, but my opinion would be not to go any smaller than a 170 ZP canopy for a while. The landing characteristics are WAY different on a ZP and it will be like learning to land all over again, so loading your first ZP canopy at like 1.47:1 will probably be more than enough for a looong time (may even be too much in a lot of people's eyes). All that speed that you build up on your riser landings on your f111 is already going to be there, and then some, on any ZP canopy.... just a thought.
"Pammi's Hemp/Skydiving Jewelry"

[freeflir29 0]

"1.3 on a 190? Damn... you fat bastard"
It's a Cinderella gut. After midnight........it all turns to dick.
Merrick- Most people have told me that ZP flies a lot like a one size larger F-111 canopy. 170zp=190F-111. Don't know if this is really true and I'm sure that is a very general statement. However, I think if I can handle a 360 hook on an F-111 190 I can probably land straight in on something much smaller. In no hurry to kill myself though. I'll demo a few and see what happens.
"There once was a man named Enis....."-Krusty the Clown
Clay

[skybytch 259]

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I don't want to be labeled as the canopy Nazi,

Well I am the canopy Nazi ( @ Merrick) and I agree. Actually I think putting a few jumps on the Hornet 190 that Mike offered would be a good idea, then check out some 170's if the 190 ain't enough for ya.

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I think if I can handle a 360 hook on an F-111 190 I can probably land straight in on something much smaller.

Probably. The majority of the time. Think about landing it in the worst possible conditions before you decide. If you'd be over 1.4 on a 170, that's getting into high wingloadings for your experience level. It's gonna be fast. Can you land it standing up in no wind, crosswind, downwind, into someone's backyard cuz Bob can't spot?
If you're gonna be a swooper, learn to do it right. If at all possible, get some advanced canopy control training/coaching when you do start jumping zp. For what you want to do with a canopy, that kind of training could someday save you a lot of pain, and it will definitely help you get longer, better swoops out of whatever canopy you're flying.
pull and flare,
lisa

[RemiAndKaren 0]

Clay
a 1.47 loading is ~fairly~ aggressive, expecially since it would be your 1st ZP.... Borroe a ZP 190 1st just to see how different it can be, then try demoing a 170...
and as far as landing a canopy straight in... most people can easily land a canopy a couple size smaller then what they fly if all the conditions are right in a straight in approach... its the other landings/conditions that will hurt (try this.. long spot.. yea I can make it back.. yea i can.. shit....)...
Remi
Muff 914