Crossfire Clarification - 11 Oct 2001

[Geoff 0]

There's another update from Icarus about the Crossfire.
http://www.icaruscanopies.com/bulletin2.htm
Just a clarification of course.
Geoff
Product Safety Bulletin
Clarification of Bulletin #20011004
October 11, 2001
It is apparent that some confusion exists with regard to DZO and/or S&TA approval of Crossfire owners/canopies relating to safety bulletin #20011004 dated 04 October 2001.
Icarus Canopies is not asking for DZO’s or S&TA’s to approve canopies for use.
As overviewed in the bulletin Icarus Canopies is confident that the majority of Crossfire’s are NOT affected. In addition there is a quantity of canopies which are affected; however, it is not possible to identify the specific canopies by viewing manufacturing files.
Icarus Canopies is comfortable in allowing the use of Crossfire’s by owners who are experienced skydivers with a sufficient quantity of jumps on their canopy to have flown their Crossfire in various meteorological conditions and on front risers, and have NOT experienced ANY buffeting or instability with their canopy.
Experienced Crossfire pilots who have a quantity of jumps on their canopy to have flown their canopies in all of these conditions (above) will know if their canopy is affected and will have experienced buffeting or instability if their canopy is affected.
What Icarus cannot be confident of is the ability of some Crossfire owners to make this educated decision should they NOT possess the necessary ability as a skydiver and/or have NOT flown their canopy in all the conditions as listed above.
It is our recommendation to Crossfire owners who DO NOT meet these criteria (either experience level and/or quantity of jumps on their canopy) that they do not jump their canopy pending factory approval of their canopy and/or the pending resolution of this situation by Icarus Canopies.
Icarus Canopies does not imply that DZO’s should police, are able to police, or have the authority to police this situation. Further, it is not possible for DZO’s to have sufficient knowledge of all Crossfire users and/or their ability. We are simply requesting vigilance in the interest of safety. USPA advise that S&TA’s are not responsible for governing such actions.
As main canopies are not subject to TSO requirements, the user ultimately assumes responsibility.
Note: Icarus Canopies are in the final stages of concluding our testing and evaluation and anticipate the release of affirmative action early next week.
snip...............

[RemiAndKaren 0]

This is getting more and more interesting my the week!
Lets just hope everybody is doing the right thing and no one gets hurt....
Remi
Muff 914

[rogue108 0]

WTF is Icarus thinking.
"As main canopies are not subject to TSO requirements, the user ultimately assumes responsibility"
That statement instills a lot of confidence. So what they are saying is they can release whatever piece of crap they want and if it doesn't work its my fault because I bought it. I would like to believe that there is an assumption that a product is safe before someone sells it to me. I would also like to think that Icarus is ethical enough not place the blame on the end user if there is something wrong with their canopies. All their bulletins just seem to shift the burden of responsibility around, but has yet to state what is exactly wrong and what they are going to do "affected" canopies. This doesn't put seem to put much confidence in my book.

[skybytch 259]

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I would like to believe that there is an assumption that a product is safe before someone sells it to me.

Have you ever read the warning labels on your main, reserve and container? How about the disclaimer pasted inside your helmet? Skydiving is not a safe sport. You can not assume that any piece of skydiving equipment is going to operate as designed or intended every time, even if you load, operate, maintain and pack it according to the manufacturer's instructions. The old saying applies - You pays your money and you takes your chances.

Quote

I would also like to think that Icarus is ethical enough not place the blame on the end user if there is something wrong with their canopies. All their bulletins just seem to shift the burden of responsibility around, but has yet to state what is exactly wrong and what they are going to do "affected" canopies.

I don't see them placing blame on anyone just yet. They are trying to figure out what is exactly wrong and keep us all informed as to what they have discovered so far; as soon as they figure it out I'm sure they'll let us all know what the problem is and what they are going to do for those who own "affected" canopies.
They could have outright grounded every Crossfire out there while they are figuring it out; instead, recognizing that many jumpers own only one main and many jumpers rely on their rigs for their living, they are putting what information they have on the table and allowing each jumper to make their own decision whether to jump their canopy or not. This is not unethical; it's merely requiring that each jumper take responsibility for their own safety (! what a concept) by examining the available information and recommendations and deciding if they feel comfortable jumping their canopy while Icarus continues to study the problem. Unethical would have been telling us nothing while they're doing so or denying that there is a problem at all.
pull and flare,
lisa

[rogue108 0]

There is doubt that what we do is high-risk and there is no guarantee that any gear will save my life or not malfunction. However, I would like to believe that there is some basic standard of safety we can ascribe to. Is it unrealistic to believe that a canopy has been test jumped and put through its paces before it is released. Maybe I am being unrealistic.
Your right most people have one rig and some people depend on their gear for a living. I would personally rather have my canopy grounded and jump or work another day, than take that risk. People can do whatever they want.
I just don't believe that Icarus is being forth right about the issue and I would like to see people I know jumping Crossfires be alive. This is just my opinion and it doesn't seem to be popular to express your opinions around here. Later...

[cobaltdan 0]

"Unethical would have been telling us nothing while they're doing so or denying that there is a problem at all."
where have you been?

[weid14 0]

Nothing wrong with posting your opinion, just be aware that if some one else has a differening opinion, they may state it or call you on yours. If it gets personal, well then, that's not good, but a heathly debate about something is fine in my book as long as it doesn't turn into name calling, which I don't think it has. The way I look at it, these forums and all those like it are like little editorials, or letters to the editor you can respond to almost instantly -- which in some cases is good or bad depending on how fast you type and hit the send key while still in an emotional state :). post your opinions, it's all good.

[skybytch 259]

Been right here Dan... I guess we disagree on the definitions of "doing nothing" and "denying."
I work in the industry. First I heard of a problem with the Crossfire was in late August when I sold a canopy from our stock and the jumper who bought it noticed the "bucking" problem on his first jump with it. Within a week I'd heard of
two or three more that exhibited the same problem, then heard about one that collapsed - luckily the jumper under it pulled off a decent landing. Icarus's first bulletin was published in mid-September, about 3 weeks after I first heard about the problem. They've updated us since then as they've gotten more information. They are still working on the
solution. imho, that's not ignoring the problem or denying that there is a problem.
Icarus has provided Crossfire owners with what Icarus feels is enough information to make a decision whether to jump their canopy or not between now and the time an answer is found. According to the bulletin above, that should be any day now.
I'm not trying to flame you Dan - but what would Atair do differently than Icarus is doing now if an Atair canopy had a problem?

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This is just my opinion and it doesn't seem to be popular to express your opinions around here.

Expressing your opinion is what this place is all about, rogue. I don't have to agree with your opinion any more than you have to agree with mine, but we can both express them here. I'm sorry if you took my post personally; it was not meant as a personal attack in any way. Hang around and keep posting; who knows, we just might agree on something someday!
pull and flare,
lisa

[RemiAndKaren 0]

Yes, I know jumping has risks. yes I've read my labels and understood what they mean. I also understand that they are there to protect company's from trigger happy lawers.
What I also know is that if i purchase gear, it should be made right. The fact that the nose of the Crossfire has been constantly changing to address whatever issue does not sit well with me. To me, sounds like the design was not stable.
Also, now claiming that lots of canopies actually fall outside manufacturing specs and tolerences scares me. What kind
of process was in place to check quality?
So as a consumer, I see a product that appears not mature, and that has poor quality.
Makes my choice for my next canopy easier.
Remi
Muff 914

[Geoff 0]

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The fact that the nose of the Crossfire has been constantly changing ....

You sound very certain of this. In contrast, Icarus have said very clearly in the bulletin of 4 Oct:
"....there have been no changes made to the canopy’s nose design..... "
We'd all be really interested if you have any concrete information.
Geoff

[RemiAndKaren 0]

From the press.
Skydiving, Issue 243, page 26
"Over a period of months, the company developed and implemented various fixes- different trims and different panel shapes..."
... fair enough, it does not mention the nose itself, and I'll be happy to modify my previous statement... They've been changing the design (not specifically the nose).
And from the observations of others who have posted on this forum (you can do the search yourself).
Remi
Muff 914

[Geoff 0]

"Over a period of months, the company developed and implemented various fixes- different trims and different panel shapes..."
yeah - I saw that, but I read it as them trying this stuff on experimental canopies (nothing wrong with that). If they were releasing canopies on their customers with a load of different mods (nose or otherwise) then we'd really have some cause for concern. Maybe that isn't what you meant.
AFAIK the only person who's claimed that the nose design on production Crossfires has changed on this forum is CobaltDan. A very clever guy, I'm sure, but he is a competitor of Icarus, so I'd prefer to have anything he says confirmed by someone more independent. ... which was why I asked the question.
Geoff

[weid14 0]

didn't that article also state it was a cross braced 9 cell canopy? that right there should throw up some red flags

[cobaltdan 0]

i was first aware of a problem with x-fires around november of last year.
told to me by jyro was that icarus "was aware of problems and tried to implement fixes" and that "they did not think it was serious until lisa died".
discussions on potential problem with the x-fire have been flying long before lisa's death. we tested a canopy and the contacted icarus and skydiving magazine. i believe it was in direct response to this that icarus issued their first bulletin several days later. they had no choice as it looks much better coming from them than us. their statement was issued only after the proverbial sh^t hit the fan.
"I'm not trying to flame you Dan - but what would Atair do differently than Icarus is doing now if an Atair canopy had a problem? "
i would like to believe we could not be in the same boat as i believe icarus and atair practice different ideas on what is required to qualify a canopy for market release.
they would perhaps say we are over cautious... atair canopies are extensively tested, and not just edisonian style. spent in the last two years over $300k on development work, including custom designed and built test equipment for measuring canopy opening and flight variables. the test equipment we built is now setting the new standard for top paraglider companies as well as military and aerospace parachute manufacturers. we have developed many new canopies this year. they will not be released for quite a while as it requires a signifigant time to complete all the lab testing, and field testing, we require. our newly released base canopy took two years to qualify.
icarus releases new designs/modifications by comparison at a breakneck speed. ie. on the fx canopy, how many of you know there are 29 models? after the 8th model they began selling them to the public, and over the next 2-3 years icarus seamlessly implemented and sold 21 additional models of fx canopies.
even if there were no proof of x-fire modifications, it seems that this is standard company practice for icarus. jyro stated "well everybody does it" in response to my comment that it is unethical to seamlessly release modifications like this. my response was "well not atair".
what would i do diferently? well that is tough as owning up to mistakes made comes with serious legal and financial reprocussions. i would like to believe that i would have the integrety to do the right thing, but do believe that most people would throw ethics out the window and go for self preservation/damage control mode, ie. cover up, shift blame, protect finances...
sincerely,
dan

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

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AFAIK the only person who's claimed that the nose design on production Crossfires has changed on this forum is CobaltDan.

Not true; I think the same thing and I could care less what Icarus or anyone else says about it "officially". The photos of the crossfire from early ads are show a significantly different "heart shaped" nose than the "fish mouth" version on the current models. Look at the pictures and form your own conclusion or just find two of the canopies from both periods and compare. My conclusion after seeing both is that they are different...period.
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"

[weid14 0]

Firestone/Ford for instance....

[skybytch 259]

Thanks for the reply Dan. pull and flare,
lisa

[weid14 0]

in response to....
even if there were no proof of x-fire modifications, it seems that this is standard company practice for icarus. jyro stated "well everybody does it" in response to my comment that it is unethical to seamlessly release modifications like this. my response was "well not atair".
so Dan, you are stating that you have never modified a particular design after it's release?

[precision 0]

Dan, I have been involved with the Icarus Project since the beginning. Unfortunately for me, I haven't been monitoring this forum until recently, but I have been sitting here reading and watching you post obvious misinformation regarding Icarus and its products. Your statement regarding the development and marketing of the EXTreme FX is absolutely incorrect (to put it politely) and by making such erroneous statements to the public is a disservice to everybody. I don't know where your "knowledge" of Icarus products is generated, but you are wrong, and your inappropriate and misinforming comments regarding a competing product that you know absolutely nothing about, is really quite unbecoming of you. Your developed habit of attempting to leverage your business by slamming your competitors and dribbling derogatory comments is booring and childish. The problem is, you are in a position that people listen to what you have to say. Along with that audience comes a responsibility to be certain of your facts.
Please stop playing in my sandbox. Go play in your own. Sell your own product based on its own merits, and we shall meet in the marketplace. In the meantime, please refrain from spreading untrue rumors about your competitor's product.
I thank you publicly, and I am happy to say that I am now a regular participant in this forum.
George Galloway
Precision Aerodynamics, Inc.

[cobaltdan 0]

motives within this thread have had absolutely nothing to do with sales of atair canopies.
as far as my information it was direct from icarus' 'jyro' paul martin in a taped discussion.
sincerely,
daniel preston

[skymedic 0]

Welcome to the show George...
Marc
Because I fly, I envy no man on earth

[Snowflake 0]

***I have been sitting here reading and watching you post obvious misinformation regarding Icarus and its products. Your statement regarding the development and marketing of the EXTreme FX is absolutely incorrect (to put it politely) and by making such erroneous statements to the public is a disservice to everybody.[\quote]
I think if your gonna call Dan a liar (not so polite) you should back it up with facts. Your reply sounds like it came from a politician lots of talk no substance. I'm not on any side but my own I want information not name calling. I'm not trying to start a flame war but I would like to hear the Icarus side with details not simply "thats not the truth"
JG