my first rig?

[froggie 0]

alright, all this time at the dz has got me thinking of what my options are for my first rig :)
I know what i want, i know what i dont want.
if you guys have any suggestions it would be greatly appreciated!
First off, Im 5'1 and 115 lbs.
Im looking for a conservative wing loading~ i can always downsize later when im comfortable.
I want something that has soft consistant openings. If if takes a little longer to open thats okay. I like pulling high.
Id like the closing loop to be located on the outside bottom flap and not inside the actual container (packing reasons).
9 cell (of course).
Zero P or not doesnt matter. Ive packed brand spanking new Zero P's and I know that i can handle em.
I'd like a container that is Freeflyer friendly, especially newbie freeflyer friendly.
Thanks for any imput! Ive tried searching the designers web sites but its hard to get past the "weve created the best ......yet!" I'm looking for some actual real live experiences. thanks all
froggie
Email: [email protected]

[Zennie 0]

As far as wingloading goes, if we assume 25 lbs for gear weight, you'd need a 140 square foot canopy to put you at 1.0. So you could easily do a 135 without getting into trouble (or a 150 if you wanted to load below 1.0).
Sabres are good 9 cells, but they don't have the best reputation for opening soft. Triathalons and Spectres handle well, open really soft, and are good for beginners, but they are 7 cell canopies. I don't know how big a deal that is for you.
As far as containers go, that's almost like a religion to some folks. I have a Vector III which has the closing loop just as you want (my guess is others such as the Mirage & Voodoo will as well). I'm am tickled with my Vector. It's very comfortable and has outstanding pin, bridle and riser protection.
Good luck! And don't forget to look in the classifieds! There are killer deals on good equipment to be had!
------------
Blue Skies!
Zennie

[froggie 0]

zennie,
thanks! but you said the secret word.. Voodoo! I closed a voodoo this weekend and lemme just say, It wasnt my happiest moment. So im trying to stay away from that container.
geeze, i would never have even considered the wing loadings you recommended. Right now im jumping a Navigator 200. Its the rig that fits the best. THe other student rigs are wayyy to big on me.
Ill prolly end up w/ a wing loading a little UNDER (i corrected that :) 1:1, just to be on the conservative side. A 150 square foot canopy sounds comfortable, but ill definitally demo other gear first to see how i can handle it.
Im not anxious at all to get myself into some medium peformance canopy. Id rather stick to the rig that is more forgiving. I'd imagine that a 7 cell is a bit more higher performance (?)
As any skydiver knows, i cant get everything that i want. So i am willing to compromise certain aspects. Thanks for the feedback.
kel
Edited by froggie on 4/26/01 09:17 PM.

[skybytch 259]

I'd recommend a 150-ish main and 126/135 or 143/150 reserve, whichever you are more comfortable with. You'll end up with a shorter container (good for your height) if you go with a 135-ish reserve.
You're smart to not be in a hurry to go small with your main, imho. Spend a couple hundred jumps on a 150, then downsize and you can be pretty sure you won't end up getting into a situation you can't handle with the smaller canopy. Plus you can easily put a 135 into the container you buy for a 150, giving yourself a much easier and softer pack job, and a 150 anything is about the easiest size canopy to resell (it's the most popular size canopy overall).
Actually a 7 cell like the Tri or Spectre is lower performance than a 9 cell like a Safire or Sabre. Jumping a few different canopies before buying is a great idea; that will tell you if you want a 7 or 9 cell. Personally I highly recommend a Tri or Spectre as a first main because they are so easy to fly and land.
Whichever container you decide on I would recommend buying new and custom. At your height it will be really hard to find a used harness that fits you correctly. It's worth trying to find one, of course, but be ready to order new if you can't find something used.
pull and flare,
lisa

[miked10270 0]

Hi Froggie,
What about a RI Genera, Tempo 150 reserve & Hornet 135 main? At 5'1" I'd guess that there won't be much out there second hand but if I remember correctly there's at least one dealer doing "package prices" on this or very similar.
Mike D10270.

[Dutchboy 0]

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What about a RI Genera, Tempo 150 reserve & Hornet 135 main? At 5'1" I'd guess that there won't be much out there second hand but if I remember correctly there's at least one dealer doing "package prices" on this or very similar.

I think you are refering to Roy at Rigs-n-Things http://www.para-service.com I bought a similar rig from him, except with the Dolphin container. I'm very happy with the rig and with the service I received. I've got about 75 jumps on the Hornet and still love it. Fun, but forgiving.

[froggie 0]

lisa,
thanks for the advice. You always provide very knowledgeble answers... I agree w/ buying a custom container. besides the size I wouldnt mind customizing it. Maybe w/ froggie going down the side. who knows. I shouldnt even be thinking about that. I need the container before the customizing ideas. Wait, i need the money first. Anyway, thanks for the advice Lisa and all!
kelly

[froggie 0]

Mike and Dutchboy,
thanks for the info and the link. Just got done checking out the site and have requested more info. Tomorrow i will talk to my Instructors about what is suitable for me since they know all about my skydiving so far. Thanks again
kelly

[Tee 0]

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Personally I highly recommend a Tri or Spectre as a first main because they are so easy to fly and land.

Woohoo!!! Froggie is already thinking about her rig....exciting isn't it??? Tee

[alan 1]

Discuss downsizing with your Instructor/JM. You don't mention what you have been jumping or what your skill, experience, or abilities are. If you have been jumping a student Manta and go to a 150 sq foot canopy without some transitioning, you are asking for trouble. Work your way down in increments. I see from your profile that you are from Williamstown, NJ. You have one of the most experienced and knowledgeable canopy pilots in the country at your disposal. Go to Cross Keys and ask for Mark Kruse. Ask him for advice, he is a great guy and will help you if you ask.
Also, there are some very good articles here for you to read, especially those by John LeBlanc and Bryan Burke.
http://www.dropzone.com/safety/articles/
alan

[froggie 0]

alan,
woops. most of the folks here i also chat w/ in the talkback section.Im still going thru AFF, level 5 is my next jump. Right now im jumping a Navigator 200. I wont be getting my own rig for some time.. money, etc. etc. But it is something to start looking into. Im actually working at xkeys now, so im not really at a loss for experienced jumpers to talk to, i just want as many opinions as possible. and its easier to read something to remember it then trying to recall it from memory, ya know? Ill be sure to hook up w/ Krusey and pick his brain for a bit.
Thanks for the links and for replying to my post. Im heading to the links now.
kelly
oh yeah! almost forgot... about downsizing to fast.. the dz has enough rigs that i can easily work my way down until im ready and able to fly a smaller canopy. Im in no rush to downsize to quicklly.. wanna get them canopy skills sharper before i do.
Edited by froggie on 4/30/01 07:28 PM.

[Stacy 0]

kel-
you know that as soon as you are ready you are more than welcome to jump my rig if you want to try the spectre 150. I love mine. =c)
Stacy
http://astro.temple.edu/~sweeks

[Albatross 0]

It is really a lot of fun to fantisize about the new rig and a real bitch to pay for it. I recently bought my own rig and I love it. You have Square 3 at your DZ right? They will have a ton of rigs that you can jump. Try all the top manufactures and see what feels the best. Chosing a rig is like picking a mate, only you know what feels best. Try the spectre I love mine and it is great to land to fly and so fun to land. The proper size of spectre made me finally understand that flying my canopy is not just a way to get down but another way to play at the DZ.
Fly Free, Fly fast, Fly together
Albatross

[skyhawk 2]

froggie i reakon go with sabre 150 :-) ok mayby im a little biased. Alan i dont see why she would have a prob downsizing (not that im saying i know more than u cause i dont)but i downsized from a 240 to a 150 in one and im easily landing them all and am accutally lookin at getting a smaller one and im 5'5 about 136 with gear.
froggie if u go a 150 as already said easily sold and if u choose to get a sabre ask a packer for help cause everyone of my openings has been great, it all in the nose:-) container doesnt really matter if you r going new and reserve a 140 would easily cover u.
"Only put off until tomorrow what you are willing to die having left undone."
Pablo Picasso.

[froggie 0]

thanks guys!

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if u choose to get a sabre ask a packer for help cause everyone of my openings has been great, it all in the nose

but then id be talking to myself! :) I know what you mean, ill be sure to pay some extra attention to what the rigger does when he packs my 'fantasy' rig. I figger ill have it in about 2 months. Just gotta make the money to be able to afford it.
yup, square 3 is right at my dz. Im definitally going to 'demo down' so to speak. dont want to rush anything. that wouldnt be the correct path for me personally
kelly

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

In response to: "At your height it will be really hard to find a used harness that fits you correctly."
Actually, there are quite a few good deals around on small rigs. I sold a little Talon 2 with canopies that would have been fine for Kel just last fall to Tee (who might be reading this). A Candadian girl I talk to quite often is the same size. Her name is Karna Luchsinger and she ALWAYS has extra stuff for sale. She is a distributor for several manufacturers, too (Wings, TSE). E-mail her at [email protected] if nothing else but to bullshit. She has about 3000 jumps and could really hook you up. Vacations in Eloy and Pahokee alot.
Also, I have a buddy here that quit jumping not long after he got his new rig. Racer 2000 NOS, Sabre 135, PD 126, Cypres. He is like 5'5" and it is small on him. $3,000 would take it. The whole rig has maybe 50 jumps on it. Colors are red/blk/with a little blue on the backpad.
Kel, send me a private message if you are interested. No need to clutter the forum.
Chuck

[alan 1]

Poster: skyhawk
"froggie i reakon go with sabre 150 :-) ok mayby im a little biased. Alan i dont see why she would have a prob downsizing (not that im saying i know more than u cause i dont)but i downsized from a 240 to a 150 in one and im easily landing them all and am accutally lookin at getting a smaller one and im 5'5 about 136 with gear."
Hi Ben,
You don't mention what your experience level is so I am going to guess that you are fairly new. Did you read the info in the links I gave froggie? It should answer your question about why she might have a problem downsizing too much too quickly. You could also go here:
>http://www.performancedesigns.com/seminars.html<
and pay special attention to the seminar titled "Wing Loading and Its Effects". I hope it is new information for you and that you find it helpful.
You have to realize that we don't all have the same skills and abilities at any given point in our jumping. You may have a rare natural talent, you may have had exceptional instruction or coaching, or you may have just been lucky up to this point. Just because you have had no problem is no reason to believe that it will be the same for froggie. I hope you can see my logic. Stay safe and have fun.
alan

[Zennie 0]

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You have to realize that we don't all have the same skills and abilities at any given point in our jumping. You may have a rare natural talent, you may have had exceptional instruction or coaching, or you may have just been lucky up to this point. Just because you have had no problem is no reason to believe that it will be the same for froggie.

Good points. When I suggested the 150 I didn't know what she was jumping now. I was at about .98 (I'm about 185 out the door) when I first started, so I figured something in the 1.0 vicinity would be pretty safe. Started with a 190, then went to a 170 and now jump a 150.
When I transitioned from the 190 to the 170, there was a noticable change in performance, especially on approach. I came in a lot hotter on the 170. I haven't noticed the same difference going from the 170 to the 150, however. Actually, the landings are a lot smoother.
Anyway, I agree that a dramatic change in canopy sizes may not be such a great idea. You have certain expectations performance-wise that aren't going to be there on a dramatically smaller canopy. I think a 1.0 wingloading is OK, but like somebody else mentioned, it would be a good idea to gradually transition down to that size.
But don't take our word for it, consult with your instructor. He/she will know your capabilities better than any of us. I consulted with many people at the DZ who were familiar with my abilities before settling on the 150.
------------
Blue Skies!
Zennie

[Albatross 0]

Zennie
I koticed the exact same thing when I down sized to a 170 (loaded at about 1.2). I figured that suddenly I am moving fast enough to get lift to support my weight and I can actually stop my decent for a few seconds.
Fly Free, Fly fast, Fly together
Albatross

[skyhawk 2]

alan

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"You don't mention what your experience level is so I am going to guess that you are fairly new."

yer very new (50 jumps)thats why i said "not that im saying i know more than u cause i dont"

Quote

Did you read the info in the links I gave froggie? It should answer your question about why she might have a problem downsizing too much too quickly. You could also go here:
>http://www.performancedesigns.com/seminars.html<
and pay special attention to the seminar titled "Wing Loading and Its Effects". I hope it is new information for you and that you find it helpful.

yer i looked some very interesting stuff

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You have to realize that we don't all have the same skills and abilities at any given point in our jumping.

yer i understand that

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You may have a rare natural talent

ha ha ha ha no i dont, unfortanatly

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you may have had exceptional instruction or coaching

it was good but not that good

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or you may have just been lucky up to this point. Just because you have had no problem is no reason to believe that it will be the same for froggie. I hope you can see my logic. Stay safe and have fun.

i did sort of assume but im not the worlds best canopy pilot
or anything like that and cause i dont know her skills i was generalizing based on her weight ect and based on my own experiences. of course i wouldnt recomend for her to downsize/buy ect without asking instructers that know her skills. but she was already going to do that.
all this time i havnt meant to be dissing u or nothen cause u do know more than me. i just still dont understand why making such a big change (based on weight) is "asking for trouble"
i await your reply, we can all ALWAYS learn something new in this sport
sweet swoops :-)
Skyhawk / ben
"Only put off until tomorrow what you are willing to die having left undone."
Pablo Picasso.

[alan 1]

Hi again Ben,
First, I have to ask, how do you guys get that neat little "In reply to:" thing to show up? It is embarassing being a moderator and not figuring that out!
Next. None of what you have posted came across to me as dissing or anything negative. I got the feeling that you were someone new that wants to learn and doesn't have a lot of knowledge about the dynamics of canopy flight. I hope that Dropzone.com is a place you will visit often, as it is full of great information and resources.
Lastly, in reponse to this,
"i just still dont understand why making such a big change (based on weight) is "asking for trouble""
I had hoped that the article I refered you to by John L. about "Wing Loading and its Effects" would have answered this for you. I'll try to explain. Smaller canopies do not fly and perform the same as bigger canopies, even at a lighter wing loading. Many people learn on a 288 sq ft Manta, regardles of their weight. A 110# student gets the same canopy as the 200# student. That 200# student then graduates onto a smaller canopy, say a 220 Triathlon, which would be appropriate and have flight characteristics that are not so different from the Manta, that a small mistake would quickly become a big problem. Yes, it would have more performance than the Manta, but it would be a gradual change. What do I mean by a small mistake? A low turn to avoid something or get turned into the wind. The Manta is pretty forgiving. The Tri is forgiving as well, but less than the Manta.
Now let's look at that 110# student. The get trained on the Manta as well, but new skydivers all hear that a wing loading of 1#/sq ft is OK for new jumpers. That is true, so now that 110# student wants to get a canopy and that 150 sq ft model would give them a very conservative and safe wing loading. What is missing here is the transition. That 150sq ft canopy is not going to fly anything like the 288 sq ft Manta, even at that nice safe wing loading. Now, a small mistake like a low turn to get faced into the wind after just barely making it back from a bad spot, can become fatal. That 150 will do everything faster than the Manta, even with the light wing loading.
Some students are fortunate enough to train at DZs that have a variety of student mains and match them better than the one size fits all Manta. Most are not. So, making such a big change is asking for trouble because even though the wing loading may seem approriate, the much smaller canopy will have performance that the new jumper may not be ready to handle. An unexpected situation may cause them to react in such a way that the canopy gets ahead of them and they wind up hurt or dead.
I hope my explanation makes this a little clearer. Reread the article by John L. now and I'll bet it all makes nore sense.
alan

[what42 0]

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how do you guys get that neat little "In reply to:" thing to show up?

Wesley
--
I want to fly!

[skyhawk 2]

thanxs i already understood the other stuff i think
"An unexpected situation may cause them to react in such a way that the canopy gets ahead of them and they wind up hurt or dead."
sort of got me on your wave length i was pretty much thinking along the lines of even though its smaller the diffence will be noticible but not a huge thing just faster, more flare ect whereas you where thinking along the lines of the new jumper will not be expecting the change as even though it isnt astronomical the is a very large difference and that can cause troubles (am i right in assuming this is what u where getting at)
this is why i love this fourm cause there is no nastyness other fourms would have been oh u dont agree with me u r a wanker. wherease here it turns out (i think) we where on totaly differnet wave lengths, by the way i aggree with u about it being an unexpected change
"Only put off until tomorrow what you are willing to die having left undone."
Pablo Picasso.

[alan 1]

"To get the "In Reply to:" to show up you have to use the *** tag. Just put [ quote ] whatever you want to quote [ /quote ] inside the *** tags. You'll have to copy and paste what you want to quote from their post."
Thanks, I'll try it. The quote tags won't go on until after I do the copy and paste though??? So, I highlighted this, did the copy /paste, then put in the quote tags. let's see what happens.
alan

[SpeedRacer 1]

alan,
the problem with those giant Mantas is that if you're a small person, you float like a milkweed seed.
I know a girl who weighs about 120 or 130 and when she bought her first rig (used) it was a zero-p 195 sq ft main. Smaller than the Mantas, but still, she was so under-loaded that she'd back up in a light breeze. So there is a problem with going too far in the other direction.
I am a new skydiver (48 jumps) and I bought my first rig used from a woman at my DZ. It is a PD-170 with F111 fabric. I weigh 150 lbs without gear, so that's a 1:1 wing loading. It's a very docile, rectangular canopy & I'm very comfortable with it. It doesn't swoop, but at my stage I'm very happy with boring landings! Speed Racer
Brew Skies