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stayhigh

Re: [wrightskyguy] canopy collision at Pacific

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You show me where in the UPT manual that it says no hook turns allowed, and we'll follow that rule.

How else do you hook a Icarus 330? Besides low-ish. To your eye it was low, but to my eye he actually came out way too high. You are probably the guy that sits down all the time. While I keep my pants clean for weeks. Take some pride in your landing skills man. Hook turn isn't even mentioned in the manual. RTFM?
Bernie Sanders for President 2016

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stayhigh

You show me where in the UPT manual that it says no hook turns allowed, and we'll follow that rule.

How else do you hook a Icarus 330? Besides low-ish. To your eye it was low, but to my eye he actually came out way too high. You are probably the guy that sits down all the time. While I keep my pants clean for weeks. Take some pride in your landing skills man. Low turn isn't even mentioned in the manual. RTFM?



Not from the UPT manual, but from the USPA; nineteen tandem commandments http://parachutistonline.com/safety_training/the_rating_corner/tandem-commandments. These were drawn up with the input from UPT:

Quote

11. No hook turns. (No turns greater than 90 degrees under 500 feet AGL.)





If you will only accept that things are bad if they are specifically banned in manufacturers' manuals, how about Velocity 90s for students?

It's not banned; just "Not Recommended". However, I think that most people would agree that it could lead to accidents and is unwise.

http://www.performancedesigns.com/velocity.asp
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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You show me where in the UPT manual that it says no hook turns allowed, and we'll follow that rule.

How else do you hook a Icarus 330? Besides low-ish. To your eye it was low, but to my eye he actually came out way too high. You are probably the guy that sits down all the time. While I keep my pants clean for weeks. Take some pride in your landing skills man. Hook turn isn't even mentioned in the manual. RTFM?

*** I don't need UPT or anyone else to tell me not to do stupid shit. I quit doing tandems years ago, but when I did them, I never had to hook to do stand up landings. You can try and justify this TI's actions all you want, but the fact remains that he is just plain lucky that three people aren't dead.

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

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You don't even do tandem so your inputs are not even considered.



Aside from the staggering arrogance of that statement, the quote he gave from USPA with input from UPT would be valid if posted by a 5 year old.

Quote

It is like kid with 25 jumps telling the other kid with 1000 jumps how skydiving should be done.



A bit like the kid with 9 years of experience telling people with 20, 30 or 40 years of experience the same.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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Back when I got my rating and was doing tandems, the guidance was "If it's not in the manual, it's not part of the program." That included freeflying, hook turns, 3rd-party drogue punching, 3rd-party standing on the back of the rig. They aren't necessary. TIs and their friends only do it because they're bored and have forgotten who the customer is and for whose benefit the jump is intended.

(>o|-<

If you don't believe me, ask me.

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stayhigh

You don't even do tandem so your inputs are not even considered.

It is like kid with 25 jumps telling the other kid with 1000 jumps how skydiving should be done.


From another thread:
stayhigh


I feel like TI with less than 5000 jumps should not even be involved in this forum.


and another one:
stayhigh

You have no business talking about tandem when you haven't done one.



You sir are full of arrogance. I will agree with writhskyguy and wish you good luck.

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stayhigh

You don't even do tandem so your inputs are not even considered.

It is like kid with 25 jumps telling the other kid with 1000 jumps how skydiving should be done.



Well I do Tandems. Mr. Wright used to do Tandems. And as a manufacturer representative for Tandem Parachuting here is the official stand on the rules for doing tandems that have been agreed to by ALL the Tandem Manufacturers at the 2011 Symposium, reinforced at the 2013 Symposium and because of crap like this will probably have to be reinforced once again in 2015... :S

Notice Number 11 & 12... ;)

19 Commandments of Tandem Parachute Operations

1. No jumper may be under the age of legal majority.
2. Waivers are a must.
3. A tandem student’s harness should be in a jumpable configuration before boarding the aircraft.
4. The minimum exit altitude is 7,500 feet AGL during normal (non-emergency) tandem operations.
5. The drogue must be deployed within three to five seconds of exiting.
6. On each jump, instructors must make three handle checks (before boarding, in the aircraft before exit and after tossing the drogue) in the order they would use them.
7. Relative work must cease by 6,500 feet AGL. All jumpers must attend a briefing, including the student.
USPA currently recommends breaking off at 1,000 feet before the planned deployment altitude, which translates to a minimum of 5,500 feet AGL.
8. The tandem instructor must pull the drogue release by 5,500 feet AGL.
USPA’s Basic Safety Requirements currently stipulate 4,500 feet AGL.
9. The tandem pair must be under a fully inflated main canopy by 4,000 feet AGL.
10. Tandems must maintain adequate separation (at least 100 feet) from other jumpers under canopy.
11. No hook turns. (No turns greater than 90 degrees under 500 feet AGL.)
12. The tandem canopy must be stabilized (flying straight and level) by 100 feet AGL when on final approach. There is no reason that it shouldn’t be.
13. The instructor must report any cutaway or equipment failure that may have resulted in a cutaway (even if it did not) whether or not there was an injury. The instructor must also report any injury. These reports must be sent to the manufacturer and USPA.
14. Outside videographers must have a minimum of:
500 relative work jumps, 100 camera jumps and have made at least 100 jumps in the previous year
OR
300 jumps and have passed the air skills portion of a USPA Coach Course.
USPA currently recommends 300 group freefall skydives, 50 camera jumps and does not have any Coach training requirements.
15. Instructors must have 100 tandem jumps (plus additional requirements for training and preparation) before using a handcam.
USPA currently recommends 200 tandem jumps.
16. Instructors, regardless of the type of equipment they jump, must abide by the currency requirements (see chart).
17. Rig owners must adhere to the manufacturer’s maintenance and packing instructions.
18. Before boarding the aircraft, there must be a minimum passenger briefing, according to Federal Aviation Regulation (FAR) 105.45.
19. All tandem instructors will be required to participate in the Continuing Education Module. The test will be available online. The format will be three-answer multiple-choice questions.

Have a nice day.:)
Blue SkiesBlack DeathFacebook
www.PLabsInc.com
www.SkydiveDeLand.com
www.FlyteSkool.ws

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Thank you for wishing me luck.
I really don't need that, wishing someone luck is some voodo shit.

I have skills, and that is enough to repeat the jumps over and over again.

I wish you luck with your wingsuiting, wingsuit scares me more than anything else. I don't know maybe I'm afraid to wear dresses around in broad day light.
Bernie Sanders for President 2016

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Any good points you possibly have to offer have been lost by your attitude and your ego. At this point you are not even talking about the incident in question but using it to get on your soapbox to defend YOUR right to hook with your tandem passengers. It is all about you. Your right. Your jump. Your swoop/hook. Your off track.

Earlier you said this... "
So let's stop talking about hook turn. Let's focus on why this Ti didn't clear the airspace."... but then you never ever stopped talking about it yourself because you need to defend YOUR right to hook every tandem. Your even all over the map about it and why to do it. You do it because it's what you do and you like to hook. Perhaps your customers would like that extra 5 seconds of descent to take it all in as they are coming in to land and watching their friends/family/DZ on the approach. But it is not really about them to you it doesn't seem.

The only thing I have to add on the turn itself is that doing a low(not low enough in this video as you have made very clear)180 turn in traffic over the main landing area fucks with others on the DZ. You may think you can always clear your airspace but to do this turn you have to be going into the grain jumpers on final at a very low altitude. If you have visiting jumpers on the load this can cause a lot of confusion especially if the winds are light and variable and landing direction is unclear. Fortunately this is mitigated by the fact that most canopies would already be on the ground before you
That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

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Again, show it to me in the manual please.

Most of these rules are in the manual. So I follow them. I really want to go drogueless for all of my tandem jumps but I follow the rules per manual.

Show me in UPT Sigma manual where it dictates how we should land, besides when to stand and slide.

Like the poster above says, I'm getting side tracked. I'm just gonna stay away from both thread for couple of days.
I'll be over at Bonfire and Speaks Corner talking about something we have absolutely no control over.

Later.
Bernie Sanders for President 2016

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stayhigh

Again, show it to me in the manual please.

Most of these rules are in the manual. So I follow them. I really want to go drogueless for all of my tandem jumps but I follow the rules per manual.

Show me in UPT Sigma manual where it dictates how we should land, besides when to stand and slide.

Like the poster above says, I'm getting side tracked. I'm just gonna stay away from both thread for couple of days.
I'll be over at Bonfire and Speaks Corner talking about something we have absolutely no control over.

Later.



If that isn't a blatant piece of troll bait, it shows that you really have no clue about tandem terminal.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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stayhigh

Again, show it to me in the manual please.



Show us in the manual for a Xaos 88 that it should not be jumped by a student. I'll save you the trouble, IT DOESN"T SAY IT BECAUSE ONLY AN ABSOLUTE IDIOT WOULD DO IT!

Does it say in your car manual not do drive it into a brick wall? No because common sense (if the person has any) would tell you not to do it.

Kinda like blind toggle whipping a tandem student when there are CLEARLY other canopies in the air. For Christ's sake man how you defend this is just plain asinine and ignorant.

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when the manufacturers follow their own recommendations then they can expect others to do the same.

As long as the container manufacturers continue to supply their goods to people/companies that use main and reserve canopies that are not recommended for the sake of profit, then why should anyone be expected to take any 'recommendations' seriously.

Having said that;

Read the title of the thread people, this was a canopy collision, please focus on discussing canopy collisions.

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stayhigh

You don't even do tandem so your inputs are not even considered.

It is like kid with 25 jumps telling the other kid with 1000 jumps how skydiving should be done.



But I knew where to look for written guidance from manufacturers specifically against hook turning a tandem, didn't I?

Now who has more credibility?

(That's a rhetorical question)
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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DocPop

***You don't even do tandem so your inputs are not even considered.

It is like kid with 25 jumps telling the other kid with 1000 jumps how skydiving should be done.



But I knew where to look for written guidance from manufacturers specifically against hook turning a tandem, didn't I?

Now who has more credibility?

(That's a rhetorical question)

You don't even have 2000 posts so your rhetorical question should not be asked .... or should it? B|
2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

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I am a TI and an AFFI, but don't have 5000 tandems or even 500. I am also a pilot with over 2000 hours flight time. But I am pretty sure I know how to safely land a tandem and have done it every time since I have been a TI. It requires identifying all canopies that may conflict with my pattern and it never includes a turn greater than 90 degrees in the landing pattern. Not identifying conflicting traffic, turning blindly and whipping a 180 is unsafe, and if you pulled that shit at my DZ, you'd be gone as soon as you walked into the hangar. No TI should ever have a canopy collision. The whole purpose of tandem skydiving is to land the student safely and send them on their way to promote their experience to their friends and possibly get them to come back and try AFF.
Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

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The manual? The manual says Sigma canopies only. Icarus 330s are not part of the program. They are too small to land a heavy load without doing a turn to speed them up. That is outside of the program, your mad skillz aside.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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I know about tandem terminal. It is not that hard if you can fly all axis.

I can for sure say that I'll never get into a side spin. Like some of you that knows how to fly only on belly can get into.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq12QVDeLUE

Sit flying without a drogue is easily achievable, back flying ofcourse and tandem head down is the easiest out of them all position to fly without the drogue. Easier than belly flying.

Hardest one to master is back tracking, and it is the only body flying method where you have to actually train the student to do specific body position.

All of my flying were done using the same french rig of course. Since UPT wrote it in writing that beyond 5 second were not allowed. Only down side was that drogue only lasted about 500 jumps.

Ofcourse being such a old school tandem instructor or UPT trained instructor, you'll never see that possibility. Just like once flying on one's head to build a 50 way seemed like impossible.

I really thought that UPT officially approved Icarus mains to be used tho.

I've never been to the dz where they use anything besides Vector reserve. I would hate to use Precision reserve. Even their tandem main sucked ass. I would never even want to find out how Precision Tandem reserve fly. Are they like oversized Ravens?
Bernie Sanders for President 2016

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Mr. Stayhigh,

Please open your mouth and change feet.

You completely missed the original motivation to avoid tandem terminal: avoiding tandem terminal reserve openings.

I have suffered two tandem terminal reserve openings. Both hurt.
The second time my chin slammed into my sternum so hard that I knew that I had torn neck muscles before the canopy finished inflating. I needed ten days and a massage therapist to straighten my neck.
Bottom line, tandem reserves open painfully hard at terminal velocity.

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***...
I can for sure say that I'll never get into a side spin. Like some of you that knows how to fly only on belly can get into.
........................................................

...................................................................................

May I suggest watching the Strong Tandem Side Spin video again? UPT also encourages their TIs to watch it.

Your arrogance about your skills is irrelevant, because most tandem side spins are caused by students doing stupid body positions.
I have only done one side spin in over 4,000 tandems. The student never did anything vaguely resembling an arch. It amazed me how fast we accelerated through the first 90 degrees. I promptly drove my heels into the tops of his knees. As soon as our bellies were pointed towards the planet, I tossed the rogue. After patting all my handles, I caught my breath and wondered why we were "potato-chipping" under the drogue.
His knees were sagging again.
By this time I had lost all patience with his foolishness. I jammed my knees into the tops of his knees again and maintained that leg lock until after opening. I did not care if he landed with bruises on his knees, I just wanted to survive.

Yes, I will admit my recovery technique did not exactly match Strong's training ... but I did it before they published a recovery technique.
I am also alive to share my learning experience.

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How did you have terminal reserve opening?

Only way to have that is to have your reserve closing loop to break.

I've seen that side spin video. All of the Ti arched. That was the main problem. Thus completing the 4 blade propeller effect.

I haven't had my student arch for the last 2000 jumps. In fact I hate when my student arch, so I tell them not to arch. I have one request for the student, and that is to keep the arms closed until I tap them on the shoulder. Only person that hates this is my video guys since it makes the tandem pair fall slower.

Don't get so eggy and shit dude, I don't even skydive anymore. I'm just participating on a on-line forum just like anyone else tossing out my two cents.
Bernie Sanders for President 2016

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