tandem canopy size

[rhys 0]

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I am new TI and am jumping 365 icarus but want a smaller canopy. i heard there are icarus 300 and performs better in winds cause of better wing loading. also you can swoop better and get more stand up landings. do you think it is ok to swoop your tandem for better landing??

Are you using your own gear?

Usually the decision of what sized canopy is determied by the DZO, and stepping down as a new TI from 365 to 300 I would not recommended.

As for the swooping thing, that is something that takes time and is something that should be well understood before it is performed.

If your profile is correct and you have only just over 500 jumps and have TM rating, then you re likely looking for a fast progression which is where accidents occur so I plead caution.

Please be careful, talk to your riggers and local experineced insructors and cross check all information you are given (including wht I am telling you here).

To answer your questions, a 300 is more efficient for windier conditions with light instructors and passengers.

Inducing speed by making a 90 degree carved turn for landing does increase flare but makes stand up landings more techincal.

Just stick to your 365's make nice basic straight in approaches and when you can stand those up consistantly then you will already have a deeper understanding through experience about this stuff.

Be safe and work within your capabilities.

Rhys

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[jumpdude17 0]

ok good advice, i have been jumping the 365 but i have to do my turn so low it kinda scares people. i think a smaller parachute will let me turn higher and it will be safer. i am still learning so i need more practice with hook turn tandems...thanks for the advice.

[rhys 0]

The term hook turn scares me.

An induced speed approach should be a progressive yet controlled turn that can be aborted.

the term hook turn implies (to me) a snappy turn that is fully commited. A tandem is relatively lightly loaded with a short recovery arc so bugger all margin for error.

The way you desribe your actions concerns me.

I suggested you do straight approaches until you can consistantly stand them up, then start with 45 dgree turns etc etc, this takes hundreds, not tens of jumps.

Be Careful!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[skydog 2]

What's the problem with using the right landing depending on the situation?

Sometimes I slide, sometimes I stand but it depends on many factor's, wind, student etc.

It's not your skydive but it is your responsibility to land in a way to not injure the student (as far as that is possible.) If you are hooking to be "cool" then I suggest you go to the manifest, hand in your Tandem rating and keep fun jumping instead......

Sounds harsh but you are a liability and when you hurt someone and their lawyer reads your posts they will have a field day..........

Journey not destination.....

[chris74 0]

Hey man,
550 T-jumps, 3 years in the sport, you already jump a 365 and right now you plan to download and get into swooping !
woahhh ! Good luck and God bless your passengers .
Yes, I am a little bit rude but sometimes ......
Blue sky
Xtophe

[jumpdude17 0]

ive seen the other guys stand up pretty much everytime by getting extra speed for landing, isnt that the safest way to land?? they are able to bring it to a complete stop and stand up that seems better than a butt bomb..

[johnny1488 1]

Well the butt bomb is the wrong way to approach it. I always put my feet down and slide, lifting the student up. I control the rate of decent (of our bodies) and usually, with most people, have them land on my lap. It's very soft and a great experience for them. If there is some wind, and as i'm sliding I think I could stand, I dig a bit harder to stop. If I come to a stop and all they have to do is put their feet down, I tell them to. Even if they don't we can still sit and they rarely touch the ground. I have seen more botched attempted standups, and think instructors shouldn't try so hard to do it until they really know what they are doing, in the case of some instructors, could be never.

It is ridiculous how little speed you have to add to a tandem to get the desired result some instructors put their students in mortal danger for.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[matthewcline 0]

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Well the butt bomb is the wrong way to approach it. I always put my feet down and slide, lifting the student up. I control the rate of decent (of our bodies) and usually, with most people, have them land on my lap. It's very soft and a great experience for them. If there is some wind, and as i'm sliding I think I could stand, I dig a bit harder to stop. If I come to a stop and all they have to do is put their feet down, I tell them to. Even if they don't we can still sit and they rarely touch the ground. I have seen more botched attempted standups, and think instructors shouldn't try so hard to do it until they really know what they are doing, in the case of some instructors, could be never.

It is ridiculous how little speed you have to add to a tandem to get the desired result some instructors put their students in mortal danger for.

+1

Great post.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[jumpdude17 0]

whats your wing loading???

[johnny1488 1]

Well for mst of my tandem career I was about 215, and I routinely took my max up to 235, but average i guess would be a 175 student on a 365 most of the time, but sometimes I use a 330 on back to backs.

So on my everyday rig, anywhere from 1.0 to 1.35 on my 365. And I have gone up to a 1.5 on a 330, but prefer not to slide as much on my 365.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[johnny1488 1]

here's some pics to demo what I was talking about

1 and 2 are average girls, much easier to lift.

big guy is not a huge guy, but probably 6-1 and over 200lbs, and you can keep them off the ground pretty easily too, but once you commit to lifting and sliding, standing isn't much of an option.

And if i can figure out my youtube name, I have some landings to put on also.

Here's all I got for now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktJFLbraPEw

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[steveorino 7]

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Hard to say without jumping one, but I LOVE the Icarus/Precision 330's.

That is my favorite canopy. I personally don't like jumping larger tandems all day as the flare gets harder as the day goes on.

steveOrino

[jumpdude17 0]

I watched your youtube video, it looked like you could of stood up on that one?? maybe you should get more speed for better flare and you could stand up more landings.....

[johnny1488 1]

Why? The goal of my jump isn't to stand up, it is to bring the student back safely. I could force a lot of landings, but why? I don't add speed to stand or replace swooping my own canopy, if I do it it's to make the landing easier.

I think youre over thinking the importance of standing a tandem landing. More speed means more risk. And more speed doesn't nessecarily make it easier to stop.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[matthewcline 0]

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I watched your youtube video, it looked like you could of stood up on that one?? maybe you should get more speed for better flare and you could stand up more landings.....

Really Dud? the guy has not only ten times the amount of jumps but probably ten times the tandems, if not more.

Your letting "Cool" and "Madd Skillz" get in the way of Student Safety and Professionalism.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[chris74 0]

Don't waste your time Matt, this guy is a dick.
Christophe

[matthewcline 0]

Nice to know.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[Rover 9]

+1

2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

[jumpdude17 0]

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Don't waste your time Matt, this guy is a dick.
Christophe

that is a personal attack! I was merely discussing tandem techniques. i thought that is what this forum was for!! where is the moderator in this forum that was just rude

[rhys 0]

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:
In Reply To
I watched your youtube video, it looked like you could of stood up on that one?? maybe you should get more speed for better flare and you could stand up more landings.....

Really Dud? the guy has not only ten times the amount of jumps but probably ten times the tandems, if not more.

Your letting "Cool" and "Madd Skillz" get in the way of Student Safety and Professionalism.

Matt

Really he is correct, that approach (of johnnys on youtube) if anything is more dangerous than a nice long 90 degree approach from a little higher. The turn was initiated low, was over steered and then corrected but still could have been flared more efficiently, and yes; stood up!

That was a poorly executed approach IMHO, not terrible but not a good example at all.

Jump dude was correct in saying it could have been performed better and stood up.

Attacking him for discussing his point of view is unprofessional and idiotic. i am unaware of his opinions on other subjects but that is beside the point.

And Furthermore...

This 'mad skillz' bullshit really pisses me off.

Yes there are some wankers that this applies to but someone with thousands of tandems that stands them up every time due to knowing what to do, having experience doing so with confidience, competence and skill; getting grilled by some kook that tries to imply that someone with more skill and competence than them is being dangerous simply because the said person cannot perform such a manoever confidently...

Is also a wanker.

If you are not competent enough to stand up 90% of your landings, don't criticise someone that is.

learners should not be trying to attemt to do this, but EXPERIENCE will give you this skill.

I 'can' stand up in nill wind to high winds. You will see me sitting down when we are getting to our wind limit to save being dragged or lifted off the ground if the catchers fail.

No I dont stand up every landing, I stand up when everything is performed correctly.

Very simple, sometimes we just slide in. and that is still OK.

there is nothing wrong with sliding in, there is definately something wrong with criticising those with more competence than you.

That is not to say some people do not put their customers in danger with poorly executed approaches, but most that I see are very good at performing landings they do ovr 1000 of them each year, and the ones that cannot do soare usually the people that put thier customers in peril due to inexperience.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[chris74 0]

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Don't waste your time Matt, this guy is a dick.
Christophe

that is a personal attack! I was merely discussing tandem techniques. i thought that is what this forum was for!! where is the moderator in this forum that was just rude

Yes it is because of your behavior.
You are a noob and don't even understand why you will crash using an inadequat landing technic, probably endangering your life, your passenger's lives and screwing up the lives of other DZ's users! ...

[johnny1488 1]

Was that my best approach, of course not, but dangerous? That's a bit of a stretch. No more so than a braked approach.

I put the video up not for my approach (and subsequent corrections for landing as close as possible to my video) but for the sliding landing to show an alternative to the aforementioned "butt bomb".

I approach most of my landings with the intention of sliding. For me it takes a lot less effort, less wear and tear on my body and a overall better experience for my students. If that is somehow my lack of skill and competence, I guess I haven't learned much in my almost 4000 tandems. Maybe in the next 4000 I can learn to do it right.

I was only trying to show that sliding landings can be well exectued and safe for all those involved, especially new tandem masters.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[matthewcline 0]

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Canopies are tools, no single canopy will work for ALL loads and conditions.

An Icarus 330 will perform for all customers that are within the operational limits of the equipment, and will perform in all winds that are suitable for operations.

Others will also.

So I find that statement to be a little far fetched.

Sometimes the winds at 3-4 k are stronger than 25-30 knots while the landing conditions are less then 15 knots.

A smaller canopy will help you alot in these conditions.

Nobody (in their right mind) enjoys going backwards.

A 365 or 389 etc etc. are too big for some conditions that are operable, at least for me (75kg) anyway.

You know you re-wrote my statement and it actually agrees right?

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[matthewcline 0]

Quote

Quote

:
In Reply To
I watched your youtube video, it looked like you could of stood up on that one?? maybe you should get more speed for better flare and you could stand up more landings.....

Really Dud? the guy has not only ten times the amount of jumps but probably ten times the tandems, if not more.

Your letting "Cool" and "Madd Skillz" get in the way of Student Safety and Professionalism.

Matt

Really he is correct, that approach (of johnnys on youtube) if anything is more dangerous than a nice long 90 degree approach from a little higher. The turn was initiated low, was over steered and then corrected but still could have been flared more efficiently, and yes; stood up!

That was a poorly executed approach IMHO, not terrible but not a good example at all.

Jump dude was correct in saying it could have been performed better and stood up.

Attacking him for discussing his point of view is unprofessional and idiotic. i am unaware of his opinions on other subjects but that is beside the point.

And Furthermore...

This 'mad skillz' bullshit really pisses me off.

Yes there are some wankers that this applies to but someone with thousands of tandems that stands them up every time due to knowing what to do, having experience doing so with confidience, competence and skill; getting grilled by some kook that tries to imply that someone with more skill and competence than them is being dangerous simply because the said person cannot perform such a manoever confidently...

Is also a wanker.

If you are not competent enough to stand up 90% of your landings, don't criticise someone that is.

learners should not be trying to attemt to do this, but EXPERIENCE will give you this skill.

I 'can' stand up in nill wind to high winds. You will see me sitting down when we are getting to our wind limit to save being dragged or lifted off the ground if the catchers fail.

No I dont stand up every landing, I stand up when everything is performed correctly.

Very simple, sometimes we just slide in. and that is still OK.

there is nothing wrong with sliding in, there is definately something wrong with criticising those with more competence than you.

That is not to say some people do not put their customers in danger with poorly executed approaches, but most that I see are very good at performing landings they do ovr 1000 of them each year, and the ones that cannot do soare usually the people that put thier customers in peril due to inexperience.

We must have looked at two different videos. I saw a 90 at an appropriate altitude that leveled off with non input and a 10ish degree correction for the camera. All the way to a nice soft slide of a landing.

As to your other comments, well some people just put out a vibe. You may think I was too harsh, I think i needed to be blunt as he seems to not get it. You and I have a different point of reference, you as a DZO - money in (or no DZ I get it), me as and I/E- safety first or no future for the sport.

It is the attitude of those who are only in it for the money and ego boost that has caused the US Manufacturers to have to rethink allowing National Organizations to run the Tandem Programs.

No US Rig builder allows greater then a 90 to final, no one under the age of majority in a state may jump, no skipped handle checks on exits, no multi axis flying. When do they approach the other Countries Skydiving Organizations and say "No more!"?

This Instructional Technique known as Tandem Skydiving is not for you or me to get our rocks off (It is a side affect we can share in though). Any thing done in Tandem Instruction that is not done for safety first is just plain wrong.

Tandem Skydiving Instruction should be, Brief safe, rig safe, load safe, hook up safe, exit safe, freefall safe, land safe and leave safe.

Nothing more.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[rhys 0]

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That's a bit of a stretch. No more so than a braked approach.

Every approach has an element of danger, I did not intent to imply that you were being dangerous, simply that the small turn and a correction in the other direction immediately before touchdown is 'more dangerous' than a nice 90 degree approach.

Jump dude suggested that you could have turned for longer and you could have stood it up. He was correct.

As for the low thing, you are a swooper, you know that the higher the turn the more margin for error.

If you start a 90 degree turn you will have to start it higher than what you did there, I do not advocate 180 degree turns or more on a tandem. but turning higher = more margin for error, more speed, more flare...

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix