Flying with wuffo's?

[adrenalinejunki 0]

Does anyone know if Skyventure Orlando will let me fly with my wuffo friends in the tunnel?



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What's the worst that can happen?

[mdrejhon 8]

Do you mean flying simultaneously with a whuffo friend at the same time together in the tunnel? (I doubt they'd let you do that at first but eventually they would let you... The question is the amount of tunnel time to get cleared for RW)

Or do you mean visiting together? I don't see why not -- SkyVenture caters to both whuffos and skydivers and switches between them all the time... One after the other, of course. :-) That was my experience when I went...

[mattjw916 2]

My experience so far is that you can fly with anyone that demonstrates stability, heading, and fall-rate control. If they can't maintain a level or a heading then they aren't ready to fly with anyone yet. Safety is a big issue in the tunnel and even experienced skydivers occasionally pancake each other and end up in a pile in the corner.

That said, most whuffos will be really stiff and chip around a lot for their first couple sessions and will require a lot of attention from the instructor/spotter. They are best left to enjoy the experience on their own until they get comfortable and controlled.

Just my $0.02 from a fledgling tunnel-rat.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[diablopilot 2]

Probably not untill that person shows the ability to do a controled two way. Ask an IBA rated instructor what thatmight entail.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Bowen 0]

If You are asking to fly in the tunnel together as in 2 way my answer is No. in the same class or block then Yes..

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Retired Tunnel Instructor, Sky/Tunnel Coach

Former dealer for 2k Composites, Skysystems, Alti-2, Wings

[mattmais 0]

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If You are asking to fly in the tunnel together as in 2 way my answer is No. in the same class or block then Yes..
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ok.... whats it take to fly with a non skydiver for a bit? what are the requirements to get into the tunnel with a 2nd member?? Just curious.... It be fun doing some 2 way w/ my 14 yr old son if/after he gets to a certain level of proficiency in the Tunnel.

mm

[Hooknswoop 19]

From tunnelflight.com:

"2-Ways
Once a flyer demonstrates proficiency as a solo flyer in their chosen orientation, they will need to then demonstrate the same stability and control with another flyer. The second flyer needs to already be signed off to fly with multiple flyers."

Derek

[TheCaver 0]

I think the blanket statement is always going to be a no, especially with underage, non-skydivers :)

Also, if you look at the progression chart, the 30+ minute milestone comes before 2-ways....

Regardless, I think it even if a 14-year old demonstrated talent, you'd have a hard time convincing any SV instructor to allow flights with someone you had to sign a waiver for

JC

[Bodyflight.Net 0]

That's precisely the reason I headed over to Flyaway Las Vegas on my current vacation. Although my 11 year old hasn't flown in Perris, I knew from my last experience there that we wouldn't get to fly together, even though she has about a dozen hours flying 2-4 way with me & our regular group.

Added: Not that Perris isn't a great place to take your kids, I'm sure it is. It's just that Flyaway (both of them) have so much more experience flying people and groups of people than all other tunnels that they are much more professional and understanding which includes flexible too. Charts and progressions are cool.. but just like with life... one size does not fit all.

[TheCaver 0]

I can't begin to compete with your flying experience, but that seems like a rather audacious statement.

To me, FlyAway's policy (though admittedly, I have not contacted them for their official position) seems a bit reckless, not exactly what I would call professional. In your post, flexible seems to equal negligence (IMHO).

I have 2 kids and they love to fly, but being involved in the growth of several businesses in my life, I also understand that responsible companies sometimes have to do things that may not be popular with some individuals in order to protect us and themselves from potential disaster, even if the chances that it may occur are negligble.

But to insinuate that SkyVenture is any less professional or understanding because of their corporate policy and desire to maintain their saftey record is absurd and unfair. Point of fact, they even restrict themselves in the regard that newer instructors are not allowed to fly with skydivers for safety reasons. Does this make them less professional? No, I think just the opposite.

Some will see this as a big bad corporation protecting themselves, and that is partially true, however, in order to expand SkyVenture, as well as other brands, and bring our sport to a broader audience (as I'm sure you know, SV has been off and on in negotitations with a leading Mall developer to install 20 more tunnels over the next several years), they must play by the rules and make the hard decisions. This can only be good for all of us, more tunnel supply = less cost and mainstream acceptability.

Cheers,

JC

[Paige 0]

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This can only be good for all of us, more tunnel supply = less cost and mainstream acceptability.

As more tunnels have popped up over the country the cost of time has gone up and the average flight time has decreased (see bodyflight.net for some other stats on last year).

We experienced a jump from $630 to $700 a peak hour in Orlando in October. Before October, SVO was the cheapest SV tunnel for time. I believe they wanted to test the waters and see if they could charge more like the other facilities. I think they have been successful in their venture even though I can't say I like price hikes for the tunnel or anything in life (even though I know growth and inflation are a reality and not raising price can be an unrealistic expectation).

Premium brand, product, & staff = premium price. Will that change? Not so sure.

Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate
www.TunnelPinkMafia.com

[TheCaver 0]

Very good point. We are in the beginning stages of this growth, and yes, for awhile I believe that demand will continue to outpace supply as the acceptance grows.

Will there ever be a tipping point? Not sure, since VWT's as attractions are very limited in their throughput. With an operating profit of ~40% at ~80% capacity, there is definately a limit as to how competitive their pricing structure can get, but as maturation occurs in the public sector (again, as an attraction rather than a training tool), we'll see how tunnel owners and operators get creative in adding on additional revenue streams to their investments.

Additionally, there has to be some room for technological improvement to reduce power consumption. Specifically, I wonder what effect increasing suit size by one size on all tourist flights would have on power usage. Bah, thats way off topic now :)

JC

[Paulipod 0]

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To me, FlyAway's policy (though admittedly, I have not contacted them for their official position) seems a bit reckless

I think that every tunnel operator does what they believe to be safe and with as little risk to the customer as possible.

In flying with beginners there are two factors to consider.... the beginner and how safe the experienced flyer is!

I can appreciate where space is an issue having an extra body in the chamber may not be so appealing. Each case should be considered on its merits - that is flexibility, rather than having a rule that is a bit like 'computer says no'

If we had a beginner here and an experienced flyer that I knew was more than competent enough our instructor would simply have to watch over the beginner (provided the experienced flyer was able to move out of the way etc). In a smaller space this may not be feasible.

We do however for the first time into the tunnel insist on one-on-one with the instructor... but it only takes a couple of minutes usually to pass this hurdle if friends want to be in the wind together.

Bodyflight Bedford
www.bodyflight.co.uk

[Bodyflight.Net 0]

No need to compete with my experience, I'm not competitive.
I did not say talk generally about SV.. I refered to my experiences at ONE of the SVs in Perris.
They are MUCH more flexible in Orlando for sure.. but still.. not nearly as much as at either Flyaway.

[skycat 0]

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We do however for the first time into the tunnel insist on one-on-one with the instructor... but it only takes a couple of minutes usually to pass this hurdle if friends want to be in the wind together.

That is how SVC is also, if you can prove you can fly they have no problem letting two people fly together. Adults that is, not sure about kids as there have yet to be any kids that are more than first time flyers in the tunnel.

Fly it like you stole it!

[VivaHeadDown 0]

What was it that gave you this impression? SkyVenture is fairly simple in it's rules regaurdless of the facility or it's location: capable of controlled body flight (hold a heading, controlled motion and turns in place) before attempting to fly with another person. Age doesn't matter. There may be fallrate issues, but I've personally flown a larger suit just to do 2-ways with a 9 year old. At Perris there is a kids club that has had kids 11 and 13 flying two ways, we have kids in their teens who have enough control in their sitfly to not only fly with their parents, but their brothers and sisters as well. In Eloy, I've seen two girls well under 10 years old flying verticals and cats and turning compressed formations.
So, through experience, I can say that some of my favorite flyers at Perris are kids, and we've never compromised safety in their developement. Perris may only be a couple years old, but we have plenty of experience here and flyers of all ages on a daily basis who continue to blow my mind with their potential.

[Bodyflight.Net 0]

My experience at SVP was posted here... check October 2005, I believe I started the original post

Here's the link:http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1856370#1856370
Based on that experience, it is highly unlikely that my daughter and I would be allowed to fly like we're accustomed to, and so the drive to Flyaway where the rules are based on experience was a better alternative for me.

It was awesome too if anyone wanted to know... Lexi, K8 & I did 3 ways within a couple of minutes, and Lexi went on do do some 3 way flying with not just me but the other staff too... loads of fun! We got to wear our jeans and sweatshirts too.. which is much preferred over a suit.

[diablopilot 2]

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That's precisely the reason I headed over to Flyaway Las Vegas on my current vacation. Although my 11 year old hasn't flown in Perris, I knew from my last experience there that we wouldn't get to fly together, even though she has about a dozen hours flying 2-4 way with me & our regular group.

Added: Not that Perris isn't a great place to take your kids, I'm sure it is. It's just that Flyaway (both of them) have so much more experience flying people and groups of people than all other tunnels that they are much more professional and understanding which includes flexible too. Charts and progressions are cool.. but just like with life... one size does not fit all.

Once again Dawn, you haven't checked your facts, nor do you appear to even remotly know what you're talking about.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

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We do however for the first time into the tunnel insist on one-on-one with the instructor... but it only takes a couple of minutes usually to pass this hurdle if friends want to be in the wind together.

That is how SVC is also, if you can prove you can fly they have no problem letting two people fly together. Adults that is, not sure about kids as there have yet to be any kids that are more than first time flyers in the tunnel.

Saturday night, had a mother/son doing two ways in the tunnel.....

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Bodyflight.Net 0]

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Once again Dawn, you haven't checked your facts, nor do you appear to even remotly know what you're talking about.

wow...
interesting really.. since I am speaking from experience and since you weren't around for ANY of it... I'd say it's you who has no idea what he is talking about in regards to my experience.

[diablopilot 2]

So Dawn, when exactly have you ever been an IBA instructor or a SKyVenture owner/operator?

You don't see me pretending to be some sort of expert on any other type of tunnel, so why don't you find out what you're talking about first.

The criteria for 2 people to fly together is simple really. Both persons should be able to control fallrate, heading, and hold a stationary position in the tunnel without thought.

Sometimes one of the flyers can still be in the process of fine tuning these skills IF the other flyer is skilled enought to be considered a coach capable of flying or walking out of harms way.

The ENTIRE IBA progression is based to ensure the saftey of flyers, while assisting them in the process of being the most cabable flyers possible.

Your write up on your experience at SVP was hilarious. At one time you complained about not being able to do some sort of "trick" with another person. The truth of the matter is the instructor on duty did not see a sufficient level of control from that flyer, not did they see you contributing to the saftey of the situation. Believe me the session was reviewed among the staff......

Dawn, you are a capable flyer, but it seems that you feel the need to tell everyone just how things *SHOULD* work, when infact you don't seem willing to find out why they are the way they are.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Bodyflight.Net 0]

JP... my experiences have nothing to do with this IBA your so proud of.
I'm not aware that I have quoted any policies or rules for any facility... your completely off base and WAY out of line here. I have spoken from my experience only and I refuse to get caught up in a pissing match with you.

[TheCaver 0]

I don't know about the above incident, however the IBA rating system and its overall mission are quite useful IMHO.

While flying in the tunnel may not be as dangerous as actually jumping, you *can* still be killed. I was at SVO about 2 weeks ago when a tourist had grips on the exit door, lowered his legs to exit, then for some unexplained reason, lifted them slightly again, causing the wind to lift him into a head down position in the antechamber. He came VERY close to snapping his neck. If the instructor had not been there to grab his foot, I have no doubt in my mind that there would have been a very serious incident (not to mention ruin my block )

Just because we don't experience accidents doesn't mean they won't happen. If that was the case, noone would wear seatbelts in the car.

In your case about flying different levels, its possible that the instructor had no way to know if you have experience in flying in or creating another flyer's 'burble'. I'm clearly talking out of my ass here since I was not there, but there are a myriad of factors that the instructor could have not allowed this action to occur. And in the end, the instructor is responsible for your life and the protection of the tunnel owner's financial well-being.

I think the IBA's system will go a long way in letting instructors get a quick read on a flyer's skills, then evaluate them when in the tunnel. I am glad that they have finally opened their rating system to flyers to allow this, but the fact is, once an instructor knows your ability, they will allow you to go beyond your limits because they feel that they know how you will react when things go wrong.

In any case, visiting a new tunnel where noone is intimately familiar with you or your parties skill, then expecting to do 'tricks' is unreasonable IMHO.

JC

[Bodyflight.Net 0]

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In any case, visiting a new tunnel where noone is intimately familiar with you or your parties skill, then expecting to do 'tricks' is unreasonable IMHO.

I completely agree, but we did not attempt any 'tricks' as neither of us DO that sort of thing.. we tried to perform a simple spin/turn around eachother... do you know what 'playin the record' is? It doesn't involve eye to eye contact and I am sitting while she is belly flying in the middle of the tunnel.. I do the spinning.. she stays in one spot. But I guess what everyone is saying is that this otherwise simple maneuver is considered "tricky" at SV tunnels, and what JP is saying is that after 50+ HOURS of belly flying ONLY in 4 different tunnels (mostly outdoors), Rox wasn't able to demonstrate during our 15 minute visit that she could fly stable in one spot in the middle of a 12' tunnel... strange really..and laughable.. she was perfectly fine.. a bit nervous since they kept cutting the air out on us.. be she did great.

and somehow I'm supposed to think that if I took my daughter who has FAR less experience & skills and who is not NEARLY as with it, that we would have had any different an experience??? I just don't think so, and so we didn't go.

(I'm done now guys.. this topic has gotten way off base and turned into something else)

[TheCaver 0]

I see your point, but in several of your posts, there is some disdain for SV tunnels that I personally feel is unwarranted, but you know what opinions are like.

It's my belief that SV offers a premium tunnel experience (no, I have not visited ALL of them yet), and the SV 'franchise' is trying really hard to become mainstream whereas these are not really the stated goals of the other brands. No crime there. But to offer this experience to the masses, playing by the rules may mean being a bit more strict on flyers that are not regulars to that particular tunnel.

I kind of liken this to Disney or Universal compared to a state fair. Sure the safety restrictions are a little more lax at these local facilities, but you're far less likely to experience an accident. Yea, if you can't tell by now, I am a SV supporter, both financially and brand characterization. :)

JC